Creating Historical Managers: How to Approach (Mod WIP) - Page 2

G-Force · 02-01-2018, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Will you have to create the managers with every new league or can they be imported or copied?
Rating managers might work for what if historical leagues but i don't think it would be worth the time for leagues using historical transactions and real rosters as those teams should reflect the success of the real teams which should reflect the success of the historical manager.

I use real rosters and historical managers in name only.
Harry Wright is usually at the top in wins for the 19th century. Then Connie Mack and John McGraw are at the top with Joe McCarthy winning a lot of championships.

Good to see ya BM! Hope all is good! Been a long time.

I believe I can create a manager profile that can be shared, as there are some that come with the game. But I'll need to look into that more. But editing a manager doesn't really take too much time.

I honestly don't know what people will use them for. Having a guy manage cross era would be neat I think. But to each their own. I'm just going to do what I do, do the research, post what I find, and everyone can utilize as they see fit. As I do all-time/best of leagues, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play out with real skippers.

GH

G-Force · 02-02-2018, 12:23 AM

Added Don Zimmer, Bill McKechnie and the first "Mr. Average" Jim Tracy, who is the first to rate as a 0 across all categories measured thus far.

GH

G-Force · 02-02-2018, 09:45 AM

You may notice I'm not doing any 19th century/early 20th century managers. I will eventually, but because that stats record is less comprehensive before, say, 1930, it makes it harder to do accurately. I'm VERY stats-based when I do these things, like with my roster development. I don't care as much what is THOUGHT about what someone did, I want to work off what I KNOW they did. That's not a criticism of anyone else's approach at all, it's just how I go about things.

GH

BaseballMan · 02-02-2018, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Force

Good to see ya BM! Hope all is good! Been a long time.

I believe I can create a manager profile that can be shared, as there are some that come with the game. But I'll need to look into that more. But editing a manager doesn't really take too much time.

I honestly don't know what people will use them for. Having a guy manage cross era would be neat I think. But to each their own. I'm just going to do what I do, do the research, post what I find, and everyone can utilize as they see fit. As I do all-time/best of leagues, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play out with real skippers.

GH

Welcome back. I think rating would be good for random debuts and what if historical league. But i think you have to be careful of not having a manager having too much influence on the outcome vs the abilities and ratings of the historical players.
We have managers like John McGraw who could win with almost any team. Then there is Casey Stengel who could make the right moves with the Yankees but didn't do much with the Mets. Was he that good or that bad or in between. Then there is Connie Mack who could have won a lot more games if he had been able to keep his great teams together.
Do you rate a manager for his overall career or each year he managed.
Because recalc can be used for players but does that equal a career rating for a manager.
Im just a bit skeptical of how much a manager can influence the game. Like would i see Cecil Fielder attempting to steal 90 bases because he has Whitey Herzog or Ozzie Smith swinging more for the fences every at bat because he has Earl Weaver?

G-Force · 02-03-2018, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Welcome back. I think rating would be good for random debuts and what if historical league. But i think you have to be careful of not having a manager having too much influence on the outcome vs the abilities and ratings of the historical players.
We have managers like John McGraw who could win with almost any team. Then there is Casey Stengel who could make the right moves with the Yankees but didn't do much with the Mets. Was he that good or that bad or in between. Then there is Connie Mack who could have won a lot more games if he had been able to keep his great teams together.
Do you rate a manager for his overall career or each year he managed.
Because recalc can be used for players but does that equal a career rating for a manager.
Im just a bit skeptical of how much a manager can influence the game. Like would i see Cecil Fielder attempting to steal 90 bases because he has Whitey Herzog or Ozzie Smith swinging more for the fences every at bat because he has Earl Weaver?

They are rated over their career.

Why would they have any more influence over historical players than using a fictional manager would? I'm not really following your issue here, honestly. Did Whitey Herzog send his slowest players to try to steal 90 bases? I think the OOTP engine is better equipped than to do that.

GH

BaseballMan · 02-03-2018, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Force

They are rated over their career.

Why would they have any more influence over historical players than using a fictional manager would? I'm not really following your issue here, honestly. Did Whitey Herzog send his slowest players to try to steal 90 bases? I think the OOTP engine is better equipped than to do that.

GH

I think that depends on if you are editing the fictional manager the same as the historical manager. If its just a fictional manager in name only then the results should rely more on the players.

We know Herzog would not send his slowest players to steal 90 but does the game know this enough? I'm not worried that it would have Cecil Fileder steal 90 bases as much as him just trying to steal 20 or 30.
Then again it could be the same as a fly out.

If you use historical managers with the actual rosters and historical transactions to see how much the stats match up then how much of that is the manager's ratings and how much is it the player's?

If you don't use real rosters how do you know if Connie Mack was that good or bad without Lefty Grove and Jimmie Foxx?
Would looking at what each team did in different statistics while controlled by that manager help?
I hope it works as i would like them in the game.

G-Force · 02-05-2018, 10:53 PM

I've now got 20 managers rated in the categories mentioned above. Going to do some testing these next few days and get an idea what adjustments I need to make.

GH

G-Force · 02-06-2018, 06:24 PM

So the first stat I started to test was the tendency to steal. It appears on first glance that the impact from neutral to one click either way has more impact than each subsequent click, which is good to know because it should allow for greater variation in manager tendencies without the extremes being TOO extreme! More to do, of course. But a good early return!

GH

majesty95 · 02-09-2018, 07:14 PM

Great info here! Would love to see a composite of a very large sample of managers for everyone to use. I also agree that Jaffe's book was somewhat disappointing.

G-Force · 02-11-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majesty95

Great info here! Would love to see a composite of a very large sample of managers for everyone to use. I also agree that Jaffe's book was somewhat disappointing.

The guy did a ton of work, I give him huge credit for that. But I don't get the logic behind gathering all this info and just giving top 5 and bottom 5. he actually replied to me on Twitter and said what's in the book is all that's out there. But obviously there's a tendencies database with all the info.

That said, it's his and his to do with as he sees fit.

GH

G-Force · 02-22-2018, 10:54 AM

So in playing with this I'm really happy with what I've got so far. The biggest thing I'm glad to see is it doesn't seem the AI will use the ratings foolishly, such as BaseballMan was concerned about above. Cecil Fielder is not trying to steal 50 bases, for example. So there's nothing completely out of the realm of possibility happening, which is great.

I'm still dealing only with the ratings mentioned above, which to me are the main ones.I'm in the midst of putting together a sheet where you can enter a team's data for a season and it will let you know the manager's ratings for that year, and do the same for a manager's career.

GH

Spritze · 02-22-2018, 01:01 PM

Hmmm..... if I had a copy of the sheet since I have all the major and minor/negro league stats it would be quick work to rate all managers 1871-2017 both major and minor/negro league ones as well. I could include those ratings in the manager file and then as time permits they could be incorporated into the game.

That'd be cool.

G-Force · 02-22-2018, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Hmmm..... if I had a copy of the sheet since I have all the major and minor/negro league stats it would be quick work to rate all managers 1871-2017 both major and minor/negro league ones as well. I could include those ratings in the manager file and then as time permits they could be incorporated into the game.

That'd be cool.

I'll send when I'm done. It's just league averages in a few stats. I'll grow it as I have time to and will gladly keep sending you revisions.

GH

majesty95 · 02-22-2018, 11:26 PM

Woooooo!!!! The more realistic managers the better!!! Where's my happy danced emoji???

G-Force · 02-26-2018, 10:18 PM

What I've got so far. Obviously -# goes to left, # goes to the right when it comes to clicks.

GH

majesty95 · 02-26-2018, 10:33 PM

That's great!

How would you use platoon vs pinch hitting in game? Also, do you have favors L/R matchups? Also, would age mean favor veterans or prospects?

Thanks!

G-Force · 02-26-2018, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majesty95

That's great!

How would you use platoon vs pinch hitting in game? Also, do you have favors L/R matchups? Also, would age mean favor veterans or prospects?

Thanks!

Well the platoon rating is the favors l/r rating.

I don't have the game screen in front of me because I'm at work, but if there's a - in front of it it goes left.

GH

G-Force · 02-26-2018, 10:54 PM

Also, I use the IBB rating for pitch around as well as intentional walks. Same as PH...pinch hitting for position players and pitchers.

GH

whaleheader · 04-24-2018, 12:48 PM

I'm just learning the game but this seems like a great idea. I'm trying to convince my current league to move to OOTP. I'm pushing for a GM only online league. Being able to choose historical managers would be a huge hit with them. Plus, being able to find the *right* manager who fits your team's needs would be a draw as well.

02-02-2018, 12:23 AM	#22
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	Added Don Zimmer, Bill McKechnie and the first "Mr. Average" Jim Tracy, who is the first to rate as a 0 across all categories measured thus far. GH Attached Images __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-02-2018, 09:45 AM	#23
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	You may notice I'm not doing any 19th century/early 20th century managers. I will eventually, but because that stats record is less comprehensive before, say, 1930, it makes it harder to do accurately. I'm VERY stats-based when I do these things, like with my roster development. I don't care as much what is THOUGHT about what someone did, I want to work off what I KNOW they did. That's not a criticism of anyone else's approach at all, it's just how I go about things. GH __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-05-2018, 10:53 PM	#27
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	I've now got 20 managers rated in the categories mentioned above. Going to do some testing these next few days and get an idea what adjustments I need to make. GH __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-06-2018, 06:24 PM	#28
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	So the first stat I started to test was the tendency to steal. It appears on first glance that the impact from neutral to one click either way has more impact than each subsequent click, which is good to know because it should allow for greater variation in manager tendencies without the extremes being TOO extreme! More to do, of course. But a good early return! GH __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-09-2018, 07:14 PM	#29
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,789	Great info here! Would love to see a composite of a very large sample of managers for everyone to use. I also agree that Jaffe's book was somewhat disappointing. __________________ College Football Sim League

02-22-2018, 10:54 AM	#31
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	So in playing with this I'm really happy with what I've got so far. The biggest thing I'm glad to see is it doesn't seem the AI will use the ratings foolishly, such as BaseballMan was concerned about above. Cecil Fielder is not trying to steal 50 bases, for example. So there's nothing completely out of the realm of possibility happening, which is great. I'm still dealing only with the ratings mentioned above, which to me are the main ones.I'm in the midst of putting together a sheet where you can enter a team's data for a season and it will let you know the manager's ratings for that year, and do the same for a manager's career. GH __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-22-2018, 01:01 PM	#32
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Hmmm..... if I had a copy of the sheet since I have all the major and minor/negro league stats it would be quick work to rate all managers 1871-2017 both major and minor/negro league ones as well. I could include those ratings in the manager file and then as time permits they could be incorporated into the game. That'd be cool. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

02-22-2018, 11:26 PM	#34
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,789	Woooooo!!!! The more realistic managers the better!!! Where's my happy danced emoji??? __________________ College Football Sim League

02-26-2018, 10:18 PM	#35
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	What I've got so far. Obviously -# goes to left, # goes to the right when it comes to clicks. GH Attached Images __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

02-26-2018, 10:33 PM	#36
majesty95 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 1,789	That's great! How would you use platoon vs pinch hitting in game? Also, do you have favors L/R matchups? Also, would age mean favor veterans or prospects? Thanks! __________________ College Football Sim League

02-26-2018, 10:54 PM	#38
G-Force All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 1,264	Also, I use the IBB rating for pitch around as well as intentional walks. Same as PH...pinch hitting for position players and pitchers. GH __________________ LEGENDS SPORTS UNIVERSE - WHERE LEGENDS PLAY...FOREVER YouTube and the Web Check out my Dynasty Threads The Alltime Hockey Association The Alltime Baseball League Austin James: Playing For His Life (a Vietnam-era baseball drama) The Pastime Boxing Association

04-24-2018, 12:48 PM	#39
whaleheader Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 305	I'm just learning the game but this seems like a great idea. I'm trying to convince my current league to move to OOTP. I'm pushing for a GM only online league. Being able to choose historical managers would be a huge hit with them. Plus, being able to find the right manager who fits your team's needs would be a draw as well.