Nolan Ryan is making me bald! - Page 2

VanillaGorilla · 05-30-2013, 07:58 PM

Getting back to the subject of the OP.....

Fisk struck out 24 times against Nolan Ryan (t-9th).

Porter struck out 23 times against Nolan Ryan (t-11th).

See.....RIGHT in the conversation!

David Watts · 05-30-2013, 08:12 PM

Well things aren't getting better....1981 Nolan 3 relief appearances, 8 innings pitched, 16 hits, 4 walks, 1 hr allowed, 7.88 ERA, 2.50 whip and an amazing 45 era+

David Watts · 05-30-2013, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

That's him. Twenty-some points above the Mendoza Line.

Who is your best hitter?

Ugh, just got home from work and Porter was my best hitter. My bad. Remember, I manage only. I have no control over who plays for my team.

The Wolf · 05-30-2013, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

In The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, James ranks Porter as the 18th greatest catcher ever. A borderline HOFer.

So I'm really not sure what you think you got from Bill James. It wasn't that Porter was average, that's for sure.

It very much was. Bill ranked hitters into 7 grades by OPS in his essay "The 96 Families of Hitters." Under that system Porter is a Grade D, average hitter.

You guys are confusing his relative performance with others at a traditionally underperforming position to claim that he had value. Apples and oranges: as a hitter, he was average.

Questdog · 05-30-2013, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It very much was. Bill ranked hitters into 7 grades by OPS in his essay "The 96 Families of Hitters." Under that system Porter is a Grade D, average hitter.

You guys are confusing his relative performance with others at a traditionally underperforming position to claim that he had value. Apples and oranges: as a hitter, he was average.

You are the confused one......Bill James says that a player who performs at a rate of more than 50 points over the league average OPS is a "D - Average"?....

The Wolf · 05-30-2013, 09:49 PM

And I'm done. If anyone thinks that career .244 BA Darrell Porter was a good HITTER - bearing in mind that .220 is the Mendoza Line - you can go argue with reality.

Questdog · 05-30-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And I'm done. If anyone thinks that career .244 BA Darrell Porter was a good HITTER - bearing in mind that .220 is the Mendoza Line - you can go argue with reality.

Only person arguing is you...everybody else pretty much sees him as a real good player......even Bill James.....18th best catcher ever?....

David Watts · 05-30-2013, 10:19 PM

When did .220 become the Mendoza line?

tayloraj · 05-30-2013, 10:20 PM

Even leaving aside the fact that a lot of his value comes from being a catcher, as a hitter only he's decidedly somewhat above average. Sure, his batting average was low, but that really isn't an accurate measure of his value as a hitter. He made up for the .247 BA by drawing lots of walks, hitting for mid-range power (especially in the context of the era in which he played), and avoiding double plays.

Questdog · 05-30-2013, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tayloraj

Even leaving aside the fact that a lot of his value comes from being a catcher, as a hitter only he's decidedly somewhat above average. Sure, his batting average was low, but that really isn't an accurate measure of his value as a hitter. He made up for the .247 BA by drawing lots of walks, hitting for mid-range power (especially in the context of the era in which he played), and avoiding double plays.

Don't forget the ball parks.....Royals and Busch were usually around 0.700 for Home Runs......

VanillaGorilla · 05-30-2013, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Don't forget the ball parks.....Royals and Busch were usually around 0.700 for Home Runs......

You fools.

All that matters is BA. Wolf said so. Quit denying reality. I don't have to actually read Bill James to know that you old fogies need to get in the 21st Century and stop wasting your time with anything other than batting average, because THAT is the essence of ALL of Bill James' works....batting average rules!

And Johnny Bench is the 126th best catcher, ever.

But, to humor you sticks in the mud (why do I bother?) I went to your antiquated and useless WAR stat.

Porter ranks 22nd on the WAR list. Carter (2nd), Fisk (4th), and Simmons (10th) are all ahead of Porter.

--------------------

I do agree that for the totality of their respective careers, Porter brings up the rear of that pack. But to be the 4th of 4 for a 17 year period and the only folks you trail are top 10 All-Timers, I am very comfortable in labeling Porter as an elite offensive catcher in the time frame of 1971 through 1987.

Of course, I really don't understand all these new fangled stats like 'batting average'. Maybe there IS something to them...but long division is so hard. I'm better off having people tell me what is reality than examining it, myself.

The Game · 05-31-2013, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And I'm done. If anyone thinks that career .244 BA Darrell Porter was a good HITTER - bearing in mind that .220 is the Mendoza Line - you can go argue with reality.

Mendoza Line is .200 not .220. I am guessing this was a typo on your part.

Edit: Personal opinion. Darrell Porter for his era was a great offensive C. Who else was really better in the 70's? Fisk, Munson and who else? Career CS of 38% pretty darn good also.

tayloraj · 05-31-2013, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

Who else was really better in the 70's?

Dr. Bench, calling Dr. Bench...

But, really, the 70s were a strong era for catchers. Fisk Bench, Munson, Bob Boone...and that's just the guys born in 1947. Porter, Simmons, Carter, Sundberg...not all of them may have been great hitters (I'm looking at you, Bob and Jim), but overall one of the strongest eras in terms of overall catching talent.

DrSatan · 05-31-2013, 06:05 AM

Over the years I must have played dozens of historical leagues, and Nolan Ryan has sucked every time. I've manually edited his control ratings (the default is always super low), and he still craps out. I've even imported him into multiple fictional leagues, and he still craps out. The best I've ever seen him do was an average career in the bullpen.

On the other hand, Don Mattingly has been a HOF'r nearly every damn time I've had him in a league, and if the baseball gods were just, the same would've happened in real life.

Other guys I've noticed consistently bottom out are Wade Boggs, Bob Gibson, Dwight Gooden, Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, and Ken Griffey Jr. I don't know how anybody else has faired, but for me it seems OOTP just hates these cats.

David Watts · 05-31-2013, 07:48 AM

Since Porter has become such a hot topic, I thought I should tell y'all about his start to the 81 season. I am 2 games into June and he is leading the NL in batting average, hitting in the .370's. He was just named player of the month for May. He has 7 home runs and is 4th in the league in rbi. Yeah, I know this won't last all season, but what a nice couple of months.

Meanwhile, my Astros are sitting on top in the NL West. Only by a game though. We just finished a rough week and have lost our last 3 in a row.

Ryan is still in the bullpen. His last 2 appearances were solid and he has lowered his era into the 5's.

David Watts · 06-02-2013, 09:44 AM

The 81 season is over and wow did Nolan turn things around. As mentioned earlier, Ryan started the 81 season in the bullpen and got off to a really bad start. About mid June he started to get his act together and I was actually able to use him more often. He was still walking hitters, but his hits allowed were down and his k's were through the roof. Late July he enters a game following a rain delay and goes 4 innings striking out 11.

On August 8th Bobby Jones suffers a season ending injury. This gets Ryan out of the bullpen and into the rotation. To say he thrived would be an understatement. 8 starts, 8 straight wins. He finished the season with a 10-1 record with a 2.64 era. Over 122 innings he allowed 96 hits, walked 76 and whiffed 137.

We won the division beating out the Los Angeles Heroes by 2 games, but lost to the St Louis Vultures 4-1 in the playoffs. St Louis would go on to defeat the Cleveland Spiders in the World Series. In two starts in the playoffs Nolan didn't fare too well, going 0-1 with a 7.27 era. The second start was a rain shortened start.

As the offseason got under way, I now had my fingers crossed that my GM would re-sign Nolan and keep him in Houston a little longer. Ugh! He tried, but failed. Ryan signed a 3 year deal with the Washington Flyers.

As for Darrell Porter, he came back to earth after his mvp like first two months. He finished the season hitting .266 with 12 homers and 65 runs batted in. He once again got on base at a fare clip .364.

Our first round draft pick Mark Mcgwire led the league with 34 home runs.

struggles_mightily · 06-02-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It very much was. Bill ranked hitters into 7 grades by OPS in his essay "The 96 Families of Hitters." Under that system Porter is a Grade D, average hitter.

Have you read the essay or just seen the scale as reproduced on the Wikipedia entry for OPS? If you have, how does James handle the issue of translating for run environments? How does he address career versus peak hitting?

David Watts · 06-06-2013, 08:37 AM

Ugh, this game hates me. The 82 season has reached August and Nolan Ryan is 14-7 with 167 k's. After all the headaches he caused me, I knew it was a given he would thrive elsewhere.

In other news, Mike Schmidt has 31 home runs so far. The league record is 36 (144 game schedule). Going to be interesting to see if he can reach 40.

06-02-2013, 09:44 AM	#36
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,161 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	The 81 season is over and wow did Nolan turn things around. As mentioned earlier, Ryan started the 81 season in the bullpen and got off to a really bad start. About mid June he started to get his act together and I was actually able to use him more often. He was still walking hitters, but his hits allowed were down and his k's were through the roof. Late July he enters a game following a rain delay and goes 4 innings striking out 11. On August 8th Bobby Jones suffers a season ending injury. This gets Ryan out of the bullpen and into the rotation. To say he thrived would be an understatement. 8 starts, 8 straight wins. He finished the season with a 10-1 record with a 2.64 era. Over 122 innings he allowed 96 hits, walked 76 and whiffed 137. We won the division beating out the Los Angeles Heroes by 2 games, but lost to the St Louis Vultures 4-1 in the playoffs. St Louis would go on to defeat the Cleveland Spiders in the World Series. In two starts in the playoffs Nolan didn't fare too well, going 0-1 with a 7.27 era. The second start was a rain shortened start. As the offseason got under way, I now had my fingers crossed that my GM would re-sign Nolan and keep him in Houston a little longer. Ugh! He tried, but failed. Ryan signed a 3 year deal with the Washington Flyers. As for Darrell Porter, he came back to earth after his mvp like first two months. He finished the season hitting .266 with 12 homers and 65 runs batted in. He once again got on base at a fare clip .364. Our first round draft pick Mark Mcgwire led the league with 34 home runs. Last edited by David Watts; 06-02-2013 at 09:47 AM.

05-30-2013, 07:58 PM	#21
VanillaGorilla All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 1,371	Getting back to the subject of the OP..... Fisk struck out 24 times against Nolan Ryan (t-9th). Porter struck out 23 times against Nolan Ryan (t-11th). See.....RIGHT in the conversation!

05-30-2013, 08:12 PM	#22
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,161 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Well things aren't getting better....1981 Nolan 3 relief appearances, 8 innings pitched, 16 hits, 4 walks, 1 hr allowed, 7.88 ERA, 2.50 whip and an amazing 45 era+

05-30-2013, 10:19 PM	#28
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,161 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	When did .220 become the Mendoza line?

05-30-2013, 10:20 PM	#29
tayloraj Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 165	Even leaving aside the fact that a lot of his value comes from being a catcher, as a hitter only he's decidedly somewhat above average. Sure, his batting average was low, but that really isn't an accurate measure of his value as a hitter. He made up for the .247 BA by drawing lots of walks, hitting for mid-range power (especially in the context of the era in which he played), and avoiding double plays.

05-31-2013, 06:05 AM	#34
DrSatan All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 627	Over the years I must have played dozens of historical leagues, and Nolan Ryan has sucked every time. I've manually edited his control ratings (the default is always super low), and he still craps out. I've even imported him into multiple fictional leagues, and he still craps out. The best I've ever seen him do was an average career in the bullpen. On the other hand, Don Mattingly has been a HOF'r nearly every damn time I've had him in a league, and if the baseball gods were just, the same would've happened in real life. Other guys I've noticed consistently bottom out are Wade Boggs, Bob Gibson, Dwight Gooden, Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, and Ken Griffey Jr. I don't know how anybody else has faired, but for me it seems OOTP just hates these cats.

05-31-2013, 07:48 AM	#35
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,161 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Since Porter has become such a hot topic, I thought I should tell y'all about his start to the 81 season. I am 2 games into June and he is leading the NL in batting average, hitting in the .370's. He was just named player of the month for May. He has 7 home runs and is 4th in the league in rbi. Yeah, I know this won't last all season, but what a nice couple of months. Meanwhile, my Astros are sitting on top in the NL West. Only by a game though. We just finished a rough week and have lost our last 3 in a row. Ryan is still in the bullpen. His last 2 appearances were solid and he has lowered his era into the 5's.

06-06-2013, 08:37 AM	#38
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,161 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Ugh, this game hates me. The 82 season has reached August and Nolan Ryan is 14-7 with 167 k's. After all the headaches he caused me, I knew it was a given he would thrive elsewhere. In other news, Mike Schmidt has 31 home runs so far. The league record is 36 (144 game schedule). Going to be interesting to see if he can reach 40.