My Concern

[Edster007]

Originally Posted by jbsnadb

My brother dated Bob Kelly's daughter 20 years ago. How qualified does that make me?

Only counts if they dated for more than 3 months. If he got to 2nd base it does qualify you as an expert on baseball sims.

[Probert24]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

That is something people write that annoys the crap out of me when I read it. These people that are coming on here, ripping the product that is in its infant state are doing a huge disservice to the game an the developers.

They don't read what the developers say or just decide to ignore what it was and rip and bash and the new people come on here, read what the people say and turn people off which will hinder and hurt the game overall.

They say the same things, I know it's a beta or I know that the game has 4 months of development left but....

Read what the developers wrote and give it a few minutes to sink in before coming to the forum whining that crashes are an issue.

Stating what is wrong and what's not working is great and helpful but do it the right way

SPOT ON!! Well spoken, sir!

I can't help but believe that, at the end of the day, this game wil indeed will prove the old adage - "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" i have faith that the developers know exactly what they're doing - they have a solid game plan and are sticking to it (Jeff's responses should be re-read several times, guys!) ... the game in its final version should be awesome!

[Romagoth]

Sigh. Another long thread about someone complaining the game will amount to nothing and they are disappointed in the product. Never mind that FHM is in its infancy and 4 1/2 months until release.

Oh, and this is a BETA right now. I just don't get why some people don't understand what that really means.

[CmdrSharp]

To be fair, everyone having complained knows full well what a beta is. People are voicing concerns over the state the game is currently in. That's most likely because people are not used to seeing a smaller developers beta-releases.
It'd be unfair to compare OOTP's betaversions to any larger (Valve, EA, Activision) developers betaversions.

Most of us are convinced that in the end, the game will prove to be exactly what we dreamt of. I'd like to give all credits to the developers (and Jeff for his splendid work at staying in touch with the community, along with rosters). I've been dreaming of a hockey manager sim since I don't know when - now my dreams are being fulfilled right in front of me.

Should also be noted that whilst the game is set for release in 4 months, I doubt that means the end of development for it. We'll have a crash-free (within acceptable parameters), developed game by then. There will still be lots of content that will surely be added through patches after that though.

[mbaliya]

Jeff: please dont take this the wrong way, I have bought OOTP 7-14 the boxing sim and even the game where you live the day to day as a prospect (sorry the name slips my mind and believe me that wasnt the best game ever made) so i have NO PROBLEM putting my money down for your company...I played and LOVED ECHL2007 and WANT this game to work...But do you think charging people to play the beta is maybe part of the problem here? I have done many betas that didnt cost anything then gladly bought finished product...i just feel you have the beta testers play for free, then give them discount when final product is released...that would have cut down on complaints i bet..

OOTP14 Blue jays and we have a 3-0 lead on Nats in World Series with Josh Johnson going for sweep today....LOVE YOU GUYS

[Romagoth]

Originally Posted by mbaliya

Jeff: please dont take this the wrong way, I have bought OOTP 7-14 the boxing sim and even the game where you live the day to day as a prospect (sorry the name slips my mind and believe me that wasnt the best game ever made) so i have NO PROBLEM putting my money down for your company...I played and LOVED ECHL2007 and WANT this game to work...But do you think charging people to play the beta is maybe part of the problem here? I have done many betas that didnt cost anything then gladly bought finished product...i just feel you have the beta testers play for free, then give them discount when final product is released...that would have cut down on complaints i bet..

OOTP14 Blue jays and we have a 3-0 lead on Nats in World Series with Josh Johnson going for sweep today....LOVE YOU GUYS

I am not sure that people paying for the Beta is the issue. It appears to be more of an issue of expectations; i.e., some people seem to expect a well polished product during Beta, which is the exact opposite of what a Beta actually is. The people who paid for this Beta did indeed receive a small discount compared to what the retail price will be upon full release in September.

Perhaps a better understanding of what a Beta really means is in order, since there appears to be some confusion as to what the game should look like compared to what it actually looks like at this point in development.

[archibalduk]

It's not the case of paying for the beta. It's a pre-order bonus. It's up to users whether they choose to download the beta pre-release or wait until the official release in September.

As for understanding what a beta is, I really don't think the OOTP guys could have done any more. The only way to download, or indeed pre-order, the game is via this forum. At the top of the forum there is a sticky entitled "The Beta: What to Expect" which explains exactly what is functioning at this stage and emphasising that it's not a finished product. As I understand it, the OOTP guys are neither marketing the game nor mentioning it on their home page at this stage - presumably because of how unfinished it is. Furthermore, Jeff has posted in virtually all of these sorts of threads re-emphasising and explaining the game's development stage.

I think it's just the case of users being excited to finally see a hockey sim (as we all are!) - and getting carried away about what to expect at this stage. If the game were in this state come release day, then fair enough. But at this stage, I personally think everybody's energy is best aimed at reporting bugs and posting suggestions.

[mbaliya]

I agree arch...the reason i am not doing the beta just yet is that im VERY involved in OOTP 14 and just have discovered your site! I just dusted off my echl 07 and i am going to play that and become active on your site...DONT WORRY OOTP I WILL BE BUYING FHM when it is closer to being done, because unlike alot of people on here it seems they didnt know what they were getting into and expected more...ill wait till there IS more..and when there is we will be talking about a better game than ECHL...but until then...

[Probert24]

I'm planning on pre-ordering as well once a Mac version of the beta is up and running and ready to be tested - and I plan to test the wheels off the darn thing!

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by Romagoth

It appears to be more of an issue of expectations; i.e., some people seem to expect a well polished product during Beta, which is the exact opposite of what a Beta actually is.

Yeah, it's definitely the expectations. Most, if not all, of the people I've seen expressing their concerns, seem to have much higher expectations than they probably should. They went into this expecting EHM 2014, or at least an EHM 2007 re-make, but then they played the beta, and reality hit. Now they're concerned not only about where the beta is right now, but what this means for the final release in September; there's no way the game's going to reach what they thought it was going to be.

Personally, I was expecting this first version to be somewhere along the lines of a glorified EHM freeware, and the beta to of course be a beta version of that. And so far, I'm pleased; I think the final release will be exactly what I thought it was going to be, if not better.

It's all about expectations.

[CmdrSharp]

I also think it'd help if Jeff could give everyone an official statement on how FHM will be developed after the gold release. Will FHM continue to be developed (to a further extent than bugfixes), or are the plans to save that for an FHM 15?

[tcblcommish]

Ootp developments has and will continue to patch and update the games after release. This company is one of the best for that

[CmdrSharp]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Ootp developments has and will continue to patch and update the games after release. This company is one of the best for that

I believe you're right, but an official statement on the plans after gold would probably help kill some scepticism.

[archibalduk]

Originally Posted by CmdrSharp

I believe you're right, but an official statement on the plans after gold would probably help kill some scepticism.

Sebastian has mentioned it a couple of times, but it's probably buried under all of the other threads/posts now. It's going to follow the same pattern as OOTP Baseball - i.e. post-release patches which will include new and/or improved features (as opposed to being restricted solely to bugfixes).

The most recent mention I can find is this one:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Thats what I hope people understand: the first version is just a beginning of a loooong journey. If you look at OOTP 1 -> OOTP 6 -> OOTP 8 (the one after SI) and OOTP 13 it is amazing what Markus did over the years. The same with iOOTP, if I compare 2011 on release date with 2011 before I started work on 2012 we added so much stuff in updates. That is (and always will be) the way OOTP Development works: improve your products with free updates, improve every new version, listen to your community and make the best product possible.

[scuffleball]

As someone who HAS worked on some game development and even dabbling in coding and the massive headache of trying to code the most efficient way with an eye towards future additions/modifications/etc., I can only say that in terms of a BETA version, FHM is about where you'd expect it to be. I say that given my (admittedly) limited experience in game development.

I was very curious to see the first 2-3 "update" builds for the game. At least for me, that would tell me how the developers view the game. First priority, of course, are the killers, those bugs/incidents that terminate the game for the end user. But I wanted to see where they were placing their priority in terms of building a strong foundation. Yes, the game engine isn't perfect, but it functions well enough for BETA testing. No doubt it will get a helping hand over the coming months.

To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised by the first 2-3 "update" builds, because it told me that they weren't in for quick fixes and dressing up parts of the game just to put on appearances. They clearly have a plan -- and a plan is VITAL to any game development, especially when that game will be an ongoing concern, as it were.

Once some foundational issues are implemented/fixed/tuned up, that's when we'll start to see what we consider "big" leaps in the game. But you have to have a strong, solid, flexible foundation in place to make those improvements. And that foundation simply takes time. Believe me, it takes A LOT of time and pre-planning. No one wants to code 5,000 lines, then realize they could have done something another way and have to scrap it! LOL

I have faith in the team developing this game. They are showing all the signs of having their **** together, to pardon my French

We won't recognize the game come September.

[Game On]

First of all, thanks for the efforts taken to develop FHM13.
Beta version is already better than most (finished) hockey simulations
on the market.
When the "fire Bettman" option is (Oh wait, already included).
See, close to perfect. LOL
Great job, keep it up!

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by CmdrSharp

I also think it'd help if Jeff could give everyone an official statement on how FHM will be developed after the gold release. Will FHM continue to be developed (to a further extent than bugfixes), or are the plans to save that for an FHM 15?

Basically, any major, entirely new additions to the game will likely have to wait until the next version. For example, if we're not able to implement international play before release (my betting at this point would be no), a change that large will have to go in the next version. There will certainly be post-release updates, but those will be focused on fixing and polishing what's already in the game at release, not adding major new features like international play or pre-1947 historical games. The one significant exception I can think of is new playable leagues - if the ongoing database work gets a previously-unplayable league to the point where it's good enough to be playable, that's not going to get held back until next year.

As far as how long we'll continue to update this year's version, it'll be handled much like OOTP, where the updates continue well into the fall after a spring release. Data updates in particular will be fairly regular - I don't want to commit to a definite schedule yet, but I'd like to continue them up to the NHL trade deadline in February. The database will be in a state of continuous improvement, and there's no reason to hold those improvements back until we reach a point where changes to the database structure for the next release make backwards-compatibility impossible (and we can deliberately avoid making those until a date like mid-February.)

[Orioles1966]

Having fictional leagues makes every league playable. As long as the players are in the data base or go with fictional players.

If the WHA isn't playable for the first version,the fictional version would be just fine with me or any other unplayable league,for that matter.

If it's more work than first expected,I can see holding back on fictional leagues

[Vendo]

Originally Posted by JeffR

Basically, any major, entirely new additions to the game will likely have to wait until the next version. For example, if we're not able to implement international play before release (my betting at this point would be no), a change that large will have to go in the next version. There will certainly be post-release updates, but those will be focused on fixing and polishing what's already in the game at release, not adding major new features like international play or pre-1947 historical games. The one significant exception I can think of is new playable leagues - if the ongoing database work gets a previously-unplayable league to the point where it's good enough to be playable, that's not going to get held back until next year.

As far as how long we'll continue to update this year's version, it'll be handled much like OOTP, where the updates continue well into the fall after a spring release. Data updates in particular will be fairly regular - I don't want to commit to a definite schedule yet, but I'd like to continue them up to the NHL trade deadline in February. The database will be in a state of continuous improvement, and there's no reason to hold those improvements back until we reach a point where changes to the database structure for the next release make backwards-compatibility impossible (and we can deliberately avoid making those until a date like mid-February.)

JeffR but i really dont understand why do you focus on historical games and you dont want to make international games in first release.. because international teams add realism to the game.. i cant imagine that i will play season withotut national break (((

[Orioles1966]

Originally Posted by Vendo

JeffR but i really dont understand why do you focus on historical games and you dont want to make international games in first release.. because international teams add realism to the game.. i cant imagine that i will play season withotut national break (((

Fictional Leagues would take care of both problems(as long as you can make a schedule that meets International tournament demands).