"Runner out advancing" play, should it be in the game?

Cryomaniac · 08-02-2012, 08:51 AM

To spin off from the update thread, I thought I'd make this.

The play in question is where a runner tries to advance on a ball that gets away from the catcher but is thrown out. It isn't a wild pitch or a passed ball because they require and advance, and it's not classed as a caught stealing. It's scored as "runner out advancing", and it has never been in OOTP. Unfortunately stats on how often it happens aren't compiled, which has led some to say it shouldn't be in the game "unless and until there's data".

Use this thread to discuss this, and other plays hat should be in the game, I guess.

damientheomen3 · 08-02-2012, 09:09 AM

Absolutely. If it's a possibility in baseball, it should be a possibility in OOTP. However, as Wolf has said in the other thread, if there's no actual data as to how often it happens and we just need to make it happen a random amount of the time, that's no good.

Really, though, if we're altering the sim engine, I find an inside-the-park home run modifier that allows us to determine how many home runs are inside-the-parkers would be the optimal next addition.

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 10:52 AM

If this event happens in real life then it should be in the game if it is recorded or if data is available. If this play is not scored or if data does not exist then it would not be wise to put this in the game. Personally I don't think I have seen this play so it does not happen often.

Without sufficient data I would vote no to having this in the game.

Cryomaniac · 08-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

If this event happens in real life then it should be in the game if it is recorded or if data is available. If this play is not scored or if data does not exist then it would not be wise to put this in the game. Personally I don't think I have seen this play so it does not happen often.

Without sufficient data I would vote no to having this in the game.

The play is scored, as "Runner out advancing". As I've said, I think it should be in the game, rarely.

Also, is there anything else that would fall into the category of "not enough data"?

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The play is scored, as "Runner out advancing". As I've said, I think it should be in the game, rarely.

Also, is there anything else that would fall into the category of "not enough data"?

Extract the data from a valid source. If there is a "runner out advancing" then it should be recorded somewhere. If it is not recorded then it does not exist. It would really suck to have this just randomly put into the game and then have users complaining that it happens too often. I would rather have it not in the game if there is no data to support how often that this really happens in games.

The Wolf · 08-02-2012, 11:10 AM

What this is about is that a few people are agitating to have a play added to the game without any data to back it up. Yes, that's right, zero data.

No one knows how often this event occurs, but, by God, these people want it shoehorned into the game anyway.

This is a terrible idea. It's an attempt to make the game less accurate just so these can see a play that they want to see. You don't add things to simulations without reliable data, and they don't have any.

Without hard data this idea needs to be shelved.

The Wolf · 08-02-2012, 11:12 AM

And I voted yes if there is hard data supporting it. If you have the hard data, then by all means get Markus to put it into the game. But without hard data, no way.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 08-02-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Extract the data from a valid source. If there is a "runner out advancing" then it should be recorded somewhere. If it is not recorded then it does not exist. It would really suck to have this just randomly put into the game and then have users complaining that it happens too often. I would rather have it not in the game if there is no data to support how often that this really happens in games.

I can't imagine that the people who would complain about it happening too often would be any more annoying than the people who already complain about it never happening at all.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I have been watching baseball games since the 1960's and I don't recall ever seeing a runner thrown out on a WP, PB situation. It just doesn't happen often. To the people complaining that they want to see this is the game, just show evidence on the frequency. Without data this play just can't be placed in the game with statistical accuracy.

BIG17EASY · 08-02-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Extract the data from a valid source. If there is a "runner out advancing" then it should be recorded somewhere. If it is not recorded then it does not exist. It would really suck to have this just randomly put into the game and then have users complaining that it happens too often. I would rather have it not in the game if there is no data to support how often that this really happens in games.

I think the problem is that there are numerous scenarios that are recorded as "runner out advancing." There's the issue at handle -- pitch gets past/away from catcher, but catcher recovers to throw a runner out trying to advance -- and there are also things like a throw home being cut off and an advancing runner is thrown out elsewhere.

So simply looking up plays where a runner was out advancing won't give you accurate data for the play that people want added to the game.

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

So simply looking up plays where a runner was out advancing won't give you accurate data for the play that people want added to the game.

So with no accurate data available then this play should not be added to the game.

Cryomaniac · 08-02-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Extract the data from a valid source. If there is a "runner out advancing" then it should be recorded somewhere. If it is not recorded then it does not exist. It would really suck to have this just randomly put into the game and then have users complaining that it happens too often. I would rather have it not in the game if there is no data to support how often that this really happens in games.

So if there is no data it should be assumed to not exist? I think that is the wrong way to look at it. As I said in the other thread, I would rather have it be in the game and be too infrequent than it not exist. Too frequent would be a problem.

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:42 AM

Why isn't there an option on this poll for "NO, if there is no data" ? I would have voted this way.

David Watts · 08-02-2012, 11:44 AM

I agree that stuff like this should only happen according to how often it happens in real life. Of course, I feel the same way about other situations as well. For example, 1st and 3rd, nobody out. How often in real life does a runner on 3B fail to score on a double play ball?

Cryomaniac · 08-02-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Why isn't there an option on this poll for "NO, if there is no data" ? I would have voted this way.

Because that's implied by "yes, if there is data", or that's how I envisaged it being.

damientheomen3 · 08-02-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandMan

Why isn't there an option on this poll for "NO, if there is no data" ? I would have voted this way.

Because that's kind of the same thing as the 2nd option.

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Because that's implied by "yes, if there is data", or that's how I envisaged it being.

I voted yes if there is data but still it is not the same as NO, if there is no data. I would have voted No otherwise.

You basically set this up so that every answer would be a yes. No one is going to vote No, even if there is data.

RchW · 08-02-2012, 11:50 AM

I did some scouting around on BR for the 2011 season and came up with 43,315 outs that are not fly ball, caught stealing, strikeouts, DP, SH, SF. Somewhere in that number are the outcomes needed.

Good luck!

BIG17EASY · 08-02-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

So if there is no data it should be assumed to not exist? I think that is the wrong way to look at it. As I said in the other thread, I would rather have it be in the game and be too infrequent than it not exist. Too frequent would be a problem.

But with no data, how do we know what's too infrequent and too frequent? I agree with you that having it in the game and happening LESS than in real life is better than nothing at all, but how do we figure that out?

And that will also lead to people saying, "It couldn't have been added because I'm not seeing it after playing one month in my first season."

SandMan · 08-02-2012, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

Because that's kind of the same thing as the 2nd option.

Not quite. I only voted the 2nd option because there was not a NO option that included the without data option.

View Poll Results: should that play be in the game?
Yes, regardless of if there's data	12	30.00%
Yes, if there's enough data	27	67.50%
No, even if there's data	1	2.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

08-02-2012, 08:51 AM	#1
Cryomaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK Posts: 4,902	"Runner out advancing" play, should it be in the game? To spin off from the update thread, I thought I'd make this. The play in question is where a runner tries to advance on a ball that gets away from the catcher but is thrown out. It isn't a wild pitch or a passed ball because they require and advance, and it's not classed as a caught stealing. It's scored as "runner out advancing", and it has never been in OOTP. Unfortunately stats on how often it happens aren't compiled, which has led some to say it shouldn't be in the game "unless and until there's data". Use this thread to discuss this, and other plays hat should be in the game, I guess. __________________

08-02-2012, 10:52 AM	#3
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	If this event happens in real life then it should be in the game if it is recorded or if data is available. If this play is not scored or if data does not exist then it would not be wise to put this in the game. Personally I don't think I have seen this play so it does not happen often. Without sufficient data I would vote no to having this in the game. Last edited by SandMan; 08-02-2012 at 10:53 AM.

08-02-2012, 11:50 AM	#18
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I did some scouting around on BR for the 2011 season and came up with 43,315 outs that are not fly ball, caught stealing, strikeouts, DP, SH, SF. Somewhere in that number are the outcomes needed. Good luck! __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

08-02-2012, 11:42 AM	#13
SandMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,946	Why isn't there an option on this poll for "NO, if there is no data" ? I would have voted this way.

08-02-2012, 11:44 AM	#14
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,145 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I agree that stuff like this should only happen according to how often it happens in real life. Of course, I feel the same way about other situations as well. For example, 1st and 3rd, nobody out. How often in real life does a runner on 3B fail to score on a double play ball?