Unrealistic Features???

[E. Hemionus]

Good afternoon....

I recently purchased ver. 4 and having now played upwards of 100 games in a ficticious season....much to my chagrin, this game is really lacking in realism....As statistics are a major part of my work and profession, my interest in baseball is natural.... Let me give you a few case in points.....

1. The number of games that one or more runs are scored in the first innining ranges from 67 - 75 percent....when you include the second inning, that percentage goes as high as 80 percent.... I've looked back generally into the majors and a general perusal suggests that this is not the case. Also, having previously played Diamond MInd Baseball for a number of years, my father and I agree that this is unrealistic, even among very good teams. I also based this on reading the box scores of simulated games in the league...Check it out.!!!

In addition, the opposing team almost regularly scores in the first inning...

2. Arguing with the umpire...a nice, cute feature, but what point does it serve...if you argue, you get thrown out in most cases, and when the manageer doesn't get thrown out, he walks away "shaking his head." Maybe this should be eliminated....if you there is no one able to argue check swings....which is the bulk of minor arguments, and which can be overturned by a base umpire... then why not have this feature added.

3. Double plays are ridiculously favored toward the computer. In situations even with my fastest players are hitting into a double play and running to first they are thrown out...never, or rarely, beating the throw.... whereas the opposing teams slower runners repeatedly beat out throws...even when I have the top fielders (A or B ratings) on the diamond......makes me wonder.

4. Back to back to back homeruns....they happen far too often...no matter whether you pitch around, pitch + normal, or pitch and select some other defensive strategy.

5. Catcher rarely holds the tipped 3rd strike.....no matter what the rating, but the opposing computer catch always seems to hold the ball. No stats on that but I'm aiming ot collect it.

6. Also the game needs a feature, hot key....whatever...to allow you to exit out of your choice if you mistakenly insert a player in the wrong place in the lineup during substitution....for instance, if I mistakenly insert the wrong pitcher in the ninth spot when I have two pitchers warming up, I am forced to remove that player from the game and they are no longer available.... that should be an easy fix I would think....

7. Finally, on a number of very interesting games...when I've used a squeeze bunt to tie the game late, the game bonks the next inning....this has happened on 3 occasions and the next game that I play to repeat that game, my teams invariably get blown out by unimaginable and remarkable homeruns by players that normally wouldn't have a prayer in hitting a home run in a game.

Hope this helps....I'd like some feedback

[Hammer755]

Welcome to the board, and thanks for posting your observations. I don't play a lot of games out, so I can't remark on several of your points, but I'll respond to the ones I have some experience with.

Originally posted by E. Hemionus:
<strong>Good afternoon...</strong>

<strong>1. 1st-inning runs - </strong> Can't comment due to lack of experience. I have seen this brought up before, and can't remember what the resolution was.

<strong>2. Arguing with the umpire - </strong> More aesthetic than anything else (in my opinion). To me, it serves the same purpose as in real life. Umpires never, ever change a call, but MLB managers continue to argue, kick dirt on them, and steal their bases. One of the neat aspects of the game is once you get ejected as a manager, you lose your managing duties and the CPU (your bench coach) takes over.

<strong>3. Double plays - </strong> Can't completely comment on this, but I think rather often the PBP does not match up with the actual play. For instance, as soon as the pitch is thrown, the algorhythm determines it's a double play. It then selects a PBP that could either say it's a hot shot to short, or a slow roller in the hole - either way, it's gonna be a DP.

<strong>4. Back to back to back homeruns -</strong> Can't comment due to lack of experience.

<strong>5. Catcher rarely holds the tipped 3rd strike - </strong> Can't comment due to lack of experience. This also may be a PBP-algorhythm not synchronizing.

<strong>6. Also the game needs a feature, hot key....whatever...to allow you to exit out of your choice if you mistakenly insert a player in the wrong place in the lineup during substitution - </strong> Hotkeys and exit options have been brought up several times.

<strong>7. Finally, on a number of very interesting games...when I've used a squeeze bunt to tie the game late, the game bonks the next inning - </strong> Known bug that Markus has said is fixed in the upcoming patch.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Hammer755 ]</p>

[E. Hemionus]

Thanks Hammer.... I heard back from Markus and he's apparently working on some of the algorithms for the next patch to fix some of the things I brought up.

[mtw]

Having played into the 1000's of games, I can address a few of these:

Originally posted by E. Hemionus:
<strong>1. The number of games that one or more runs are scored in the first innining ranges from 67 - 75 percent....when you include the second inning, that percentage goes as high as 80 percent.... I've looked back generally into the majors and a general perusal suggests that this is not the case. Also, having previously played Diamond MInd Baseball for a number of years, my father and I agree that this is unrealistic, even among very good teams. I also based this on reading the box scores of simulated games in the league...Check it out.!!!

In addition, the opposing team almost regularly scores in the first inning...</strong>

I've been meaning to look at scoring patterns in the game, as I've also noticed that there seem to be some oddities that occur on a regular basis, such as the one you describe here (9th inning scoring is another). However, I have not actually performed an analysis so it could just as easily been my perception based on the last or most recent games I played (which has led to some misguided posts in this forum ).

The game does seem to use a "momentum" factor of some sort, rather than adhering to an equal % chance of a particular event occuring in any and all situations, so this may be what you're seeing. There are insiders who would know more about this.

<strong>2. Arguing with the umpire...a nice, cute feature, but what point does it serve...if you argue, you get thrown out in most cases, and when the manageer doesn't get thrown out, he walks away "shaking his head." Maybe this should be eliminated....if you there is no one able to argue check swings....which is the bulk of minor arguments, and which can be overturned by a base umpire... then why not have this feature added.</strong>

As to the current "argument" feature, I think it's a nice touch of color and would rather it be there than not.

Additionally, I really like your idea of "appeals," whether it be checked swings, runners leaving to early when tagging, etc. I think this would be a great addition to add more depth and realism to the feature.

<strong>3. Double plays are ridiculously favored toward the computer. In situations even with my fastest players are hitting into a double play and running to first they are thrown out...never, or rarely, beating the throw.... whereas the opposing teams slower runners repeatedly beat out throws...even when I have the top fielders (A or B ratings) on the diamond......makes me wonder.</strong>

This one I actually did perform a statistical analysis. In a study of literally 100's of played games, I found there to be no bias in double plays and (after a misguided post) that there are a reasonable number of double plays. As for total numbers, the human player had turned slightly ore DP's than grounded into them.

Overall, faster players hit into fewer DP's than slower ones, and A speed hitters ground into far fewer DP's than E speed hitters (check stat totals at the end of a season).

As to fielding rating impacting to DP's, I have looked at several seasons, and there doesn't seem to be any difference in terms of number of DP's turned based on fielding rating. **However** there are many factors that go into ability to turn a DP (pitchers GB% rating, runner speed, etc.) so it is very hard to objectively gauge whether fielding ability is used in determing whether a DP can be turned. Again, someone on the inside may be able to help here.

<strong>4. Back to back to back homeruns....they happen far too often...no matter whether you pitch around, pitch + normal, or pitch and select some other defensive strategy.</strong>

My league has been deadball era to this point and I've never seen back-to-back-to-back homers even one time in 18 seasons. Someone in later era leagues could help here.

<strong>5. Catcher rarely holds the tipped 3rd strike.....no matter what the rating, but the opposing computer catch always seems to hold the ball. No stats on that but I'm aiming ot collect it.</strong>

I'd also be curious to know, but I don't believe that there is an actual calculation to determine whether a catcher holds a tipped third strike. I think every pbp event is separately determined and what you are seeing is "color" and not a reflection of the player's ability or performance. Again, someone on the inside could help here.

<strong>6. Also the game needs a feature, hot key....whatever...to allow you to exit out of your choice if you mistakenly insert a player in the wrong place in the lineup during substitution....for instance, if I mistakenly insert the wrong pitcher in the ninth spot when I have two pitchers warming up, I am forced to remove that player from the game and they are no longer available.... that should be an easy fix I would think....</strong>

100% agree that something like this should be implemented.

[Scott Vibert]

4) In general I see the back to back to back once maybe twice a season when I play all my games out. Now I haven't analyzed all the games and I haven't gone through the major leagues and counted the instances in those games so I can't comment on the frequency of occurrance.

5) I can help you here mtw... you are correct in your belief... to my knowledge (and this could be wrong, but this design makes the most sense) the Plays outcome is determined, then the PbP is selected, so some perceptions based on the PbP are going to be flawed, as more colorful results are in the description more often than would occur in real life. (You'd get really bored if it always said grounder to short, the throw to first he's out.. or he fouled it off.. so we get the more colorful results of the PbP to help hook you in.

6) Hot keys would be great.

The others I haven't answered are already answered adequately by the others or I haven't done the analysis to know about them.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Just to preface my remarks, I have played between 500-1,000 games easily w/ v4.

1. As far as this issue is concerned how would you propose to change this? It is a game, would you not allow more than 2 hits in the 1st or 2nd inning. I really don't see how this could be an issue or how if you feel it is it could be fixed. I am not trying to be sacastic in this thought either....not sure how it can be "controlled" in a game unless it is falsely.

3. We have looked at DP frequency compared to DP frequency in the ML last year and they are about right, actually came in just a hair below average per game, per team.

4. I have this happen 2-5 times a year I would guess, not out of the ordinary.

5. Seems to occur a fairly realistic amount, not extreme either way.

6. Hot key, would be a nice feature.....

7. Have you d/l the second version of the patch b?

[ShagVT]

1. For the first inning stuff, I haven't done any statistical analysis on this, but from watching hundreds of REAL LIFE games, I would say for the first/second inning, there is some truth to this.

The reason why hitters hit better in later innings is because they are having the second or third look at the pitcher. They've seen the movement on his fastball five or six times. They know where his curveball breaks.

That really is equal to pitcher fatigue in what causes a manager to go to his bullpen. If you had Randy Johnson on the mound, you switch to a righty who throws a little softer. The contrast is what helps make the reliever so helpful.

In the first and second inning, the hitters are seeing the pitcher for the first time, and generally they are not as good as the second time through the lineup.

There are notable exceptions, like Tom Glavine, who need the first inning to find their groove, but most of those pitchers are not successful. Glavine just happens to be really good at dominating once he has a feel for the game.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Shag,

Without having done any research on the issue either I can see the point of this, BUT I just don't see this as something that can be a part of a game with any ease, nor do I see it as being extremely important to the overall game play unless you are talking about every game each team has a 10 run inning in the 1st and 2nd innings.

[blynch10]

Box scores from the first three days. Looks like determinig where runs scored are usaully at are hard to pinpoint to me. Although the second inning looks pretty rough for a bunch of pitchers.

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
San Diego 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 0
Arizona 0 7 2 0 0 0 0 0 X 9 13 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
San Francisco 0 5 1 1 0 0 2 0 0 9 12 0
Los Angeles 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 5 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Florida 0 1 0 0 0 1 4 0 0 6 8 0
Montreal 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 3 7 11 1

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Toronto 3 4 1 0 3 0 0 0 1 12 14 0
Boston 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 0 11 13 2

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Philadelphia 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 2 5 2
Atlanta 1 0 3 0 2 1 0 0 X 7 8 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
NY Yankees 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 3 6 1
Baltimore 0 0 0 5 3 0 0 2 X 10 9 1

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Colorado 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 8 1
St. Louis 0 1 1 4 1 1 0 2 X 10 14 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Minnesota 2 1 0 0 0 1 4 0 0 8 12 1
Kansas City 0 1 3 0 2 0 0 0 0 6 10 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Texas 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 2 6 0
Oakland 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3 5 0

Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Cleveland 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 6 11 0
Anaheim 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 1

The lines are lined up in the post area but not in the forum itself for some reason.

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: blynch10 ]</p>

[ShagVT]

[quote]1. As far as this issue is concerned how would you propose to change this? It is a game, would you not allow more than 2 hits in the 1st or 2nd inning. I really don't see how this could be an issue or how if you feel it is it could be fixed. I am not trying to be sacastic in this thought either....not sure how it can be "controlled" in a game unless it is falsely. <hr></blockquote>

I was just trying to offer a solution here.

Just using pure statistics, which of course the computer does, if a pitcher is going to pitch six innings and maintain a 3.00 ERA, you would expect him to give up two runs in the game. In those two runs would statistically be spread evenly across all innings.

The fact is, if you want truely realistic baseball, you realize that in a typical baseball game the statistics are not pure. Players change as the game proceeds. The pitcher tires. The batter has seen more of the pitcher's throws. Maybe in his first at bat he saw a lot of fastballs, so the second time around he is especially susceptible to a change-up. This is real baseball.

Let me restate though - I think OOTP does a fine job of producing realistic OVERALL numbers, and this situation would not even appear on my list of things I would like to see fixed, because I think it is minor. I was just offering an answer to your question, quoted above.