Marquez vs Pac

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by IceTea

Like his trainer, I had Marquez 117-112.

nice rating of Juan @ 147!

[kenyan_cheena]

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

Manny didn't have one dominant moment in the entire fight.

This.

I wanted Pac to win but I just kept on waiting and waiting for him to actually take control and it never happened. JMM fought a beautiful fight and it's a disgrace that he was not rewarded for it.

[Boxscribe]

The 'Manly Art of Self Defence' - NOT!!!

JMM gave an excellent display of BOXING; moving, defending, countering and scoring - catching Manny on his way in (and out - often having the last word on an exchange), yet he still lost.

JMM did his homework and hit Manny more than Manny hit him; yet he still lost.

Just because one man goes forward and throws 1,000 punches - missing with 999 doesn't mean he should win; but he does.

And as for this nonsense about 'taking the title from the champion'.... please.

JMM won fair and square according to the rules of the game, but was ripped off by the slimy filth that inhabit this great sport.

Save for a knockout this was predetermined in one form or another.

The sooner people wake up to this the better. Look back at the recent 'Big fights' - who are these people trying to kid - and who are we trying to kid banging on about the sweet science - the game is in the toilet and we allowed it to happen by buying into this PPV garbarge from the get go.

HBO 24/7.... it's a soap opera and the clowns that buy into it get exactly what they deserve... played BIG time.

The great matches often take place in smaller venues, but these guys coming up don't get a look in. What's the average age of the 'great' or 'ppv' big name fighters???? they are OLD men.

King and Arum et al must be laughing their legs off at the fans who are served this slop on a regular basis.

LOL

OK - rant over. I'm off to the gym.

[gocubsgo]

Well after listening to all of you I think I might have to go back and watch the fight. I had the fight scored close but in Pacman's favor. Now I will admit that Pac did not look good in this one and will have a very hard time competing with Mayweather.

[Rob Morris]

I must admit I had it 114-114 but I wouldn't argue with anyone who had it close either way. Some of the rounds were tough to score. Can't agree that it was a robbery though. Having said that, some good judges on here and on other boards think Marquez was a clear winner so maybe I am the one off kilter here?

[Jackyle]

Well I must be biased or off kilter too. I watched it twice, and saw it 115-113 for Pac both times. My 2 sons scored it too, one same as me, and the other 116-112 for Marquez. Some of those rounds were close, and I think Manny outworked and finished a few of those rounds stronger.

[gocubsgo]

Okay at least I do not feel so bad if others were in the same boat as me. That last round I think was the one that was really puzzling to me. Neither fighter really did much to further their cause. I had a friend over who had the fight basically scored the same as me.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by Jackyle

Well I must be biased or off kilter too. I watched it twice, and saw it 115-113 for Pac both times. My 2 sons scored it too, one same as me, and the other 116-112 for Marquez. Some of those rounds were close, and I think Manny outworked and finished a few of those rounds stronger.

Maybe part of Manny's problem was were so used to him looking great that any less from him & some people aren't sure he won.

Manny might be a victim of his own success.

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by hamed2

Maybe part of Manny's problem was were so used to him looking great that any less from him & some people aren't sure he won.

Manny might be a victim of his own success.

This was nothing new against marquez. Juan has won several more rounds during their three fights. This time he managed to not only remain on his feet, but Manny never even bothered him with anything. He got his ears boxed off.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

This was nothing new against marquez. Juan has won several more rounds during their three fights. This time he managed to not only remain on his feet, but Manny never even bothered him with anything. He got his ears boxed off.

True but many thought Manny would be too big & strong for him @ this weight. Also Juan looked slow & old against Floyd so the thinking went he'd even be slower & definitely older against Manny.

[boilermaker]

The real winner of this fight is Floyd Mayweather Jr. If Pacquiao can only beat Marquez by questionable judging, then he doesn't have a prayer with Mayweather.

[Boxscribe]

116-112 for Manny - TWICE!! That's where I have my problem...... though I will no doubt get over it

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by hamed2

True but many thought Manny would be too big & strong for him @ this weight. Also Juan looked slow & old against Floyd so the thinking went he'd even be slower & definitely older against Manny.

Many overlooked that styles make fights, I did not. The cries that weight was an issue in this fight had me banging my head into a wall for months on end.

[btown32]

A lot of conversation has been brought up about the scoring and the decision but I would like to bring up another point that I believe is being overlooked: The pre-fight, fight plan of Freddie Roach and Pac.

As a coach and former player of the sport of basketball, I always believed in the philosophy and principles that John Wooden imparted on his teams. Coach Wooden always said that he never scouted because it wasn't how the opponent performed, it was how UCLA played. Coach Wooden believed in imposing his team's will upon his opponent and forcing his opponent to stop what UCLA did and executed. Coach didn't even care if the opponent knew what UCLA was going to run because he believed that if his team did what it was "known" for, the other team wouldn't be able to beat them. Of course, as a coach in this era, I DO believe in advance scouting and believe there is definitely a place for watching film and disecting tendencies, strengths and weaknesses. However, I also believe that you have to "DO WHAT YOU DO BEST" and not make complete game adjustments for one opponent. That defeats the whole purpose of practicing for the whole season. You make adjustments within a fight or game if the pregame plan is not working, but it can only be minor adjustments, you cannot just throw out the whole gameplan...that shows a sign of panic. How can a player, boxer or team believe in his coach, planning, training, instruction or advice if his coach/trainer doesn't even believe in his own teams/boxers strengths?

Although I had it scored a draw, I would be more than willing to see that Marquez did enough to win the fight. My long-winded point is this...Why did the supposed "#1 ranked Pound for Pound, best fighter in the world and possibly in this time-frame," decide along with his trainer, Freddie Roach, that he was going to be a "counter-puncher" for this fight??!! I thought Pacquiao was an aggressive, swarming, attacking from all angles, puncher/now better boxer than when he started, rather than a defensive, reactionary, counter-puncher? Didn't he just dominate his last seven opponents by imposing his will, his style, his tactics and gameplan? Isn't that what someone of his lofty stature, a champion is suppose to continue to do. Do what you do, know your role. I keep hearing the argument that Marquez needs to "TAKE" the championship away, and I have always been in that opinion as well, but the CHAMPION also should fight the way that made him a champion, impose his will onto his opponent and then make in-fight adjustments if things are not going as planned. All Pacquiao did was claim that he was going to make a clear statement, assert himself and make sure that the whole world knew who the winner was going to be...but how could he possibly do that if his pre-fight plan was for him to be a counter-puncher, to sit back and wait for Marquez before being aggressive?

On the other hand, Marquez did what he does best, he countered all of Manny's aggressive advances and found the mark on several occasions. That IS WHO MARQUEZ IS, and Manny, Freddie and the entire world knows that he is a counter-puncher at this time in his career. JMM pre-fight plan was the same as always with the exception of getting physically stronger and quicker by applying a different training method which incorporated fast twitch-explosive actions, specific to boxing technique.

Everyone was sitting on the edge of their seats, waiting for the slugfest to break out, but Manny chose to fight JMM's style of fight. He was afraid of getting countered, plain and simple, and adjusted to his opponent when he should of been attacking and imposing his own will and gameplan on JMM. Even if Manny would've got countered or even lost, he would have gone out losing while implementing his own style and plan. Instead, most people believe he lost, and he lost not playing to his strengths.

Last note, Mayweather is sitting back laughing, although he may be crying too, because he probably lost a bit of money because of Manny's poor performance which probably weakens the appeal of such a proposed Megafight. Mayweather is quicker, faster, a better defensive boxer and more accurate puncher then Marquez. I am a fan of Manny Pacquiao, but only if he fights the way we are accustomed to seeing him fight. I never believed that Manny could beat Mayweather, and my beliefs were only strengthened with this weekends result. However, the ONLY way that Manny would have a chance is to try "bull-rush" PBF and take the fight to him. If you lose because PBF is the better boxer/fighter, then so be it, but fight YOUR fight! I guarantee that PBF will always fight his fight, he doesn't care if it isnt appealing to the fans, all that matters is the WIN! Again, the only way I could even see Pac making it a fight would be to be all out aggressive, attacking from round one, trying to land and get a knockdown, trying to take the early rounds of the fight by being effectively aggressive. If he could build up a points lead in the first part of the fight, PBF would have no choice but to alter his own style and game plan by fighting and not sitting back. Of course, this is only hypothetical, as I still believe that PBF would win and would win pretty convincingly.

Sorry for being so long, just my two cents.

EDIT: Just to further my point of being yourself and doing what you do best...I am sure that we are all saddened by the loss of Smokin' Joe Frazier. Frazier is one of the ALL-TIME Greats, and everyone knew what he brought to the table and every opponent knew what was going to happen once the bell sounded. I am sure that a lot of people also told Joe that he couldn't just swarm in the way he always did if he was to beat George Foreman, but Frazier only knew one way to fight and that was by coming straight forward. The only way you were going to beat him was to stop him. This is what is missing from all the heavyweights that challenge the Klitschkos. Yes, I understand that there is a vast disparity between skill and talent levels from the KBros on down thline, but there is a tremendous lack of heart as well. Everybody and their moms, knows that the only way to beat Vitali or Wladimir is to get inside the reach of their jab and make it a brawl and infight. Nobody is willing to take the chance or wants to do what is necessary to even compete on the inside with either brother. Even though Frazier or Tyson in his early years, might have lost to a Klitschko, at least we know that they wouldve tried to continuously get on the inside and apply pressure.

[pilight]

I had it 116-112 for Pacquiao. Many people were looking for reasons to give Marquez rounds rather than judging what actually happened. Pacquiao didn't look his best, but he was still the better fighter.

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by pilight

I had it 116-112 for Pacquiao. Many people were looking for reasons to give Marquez rounds rather than judging what actually happened. Pacquiao didn't look his best, but he was still the better fighter.

I was looking for reasons to give pacquiao rounds, but not as hard as you were. Marquez has always been the better fighter in this match up, Pac usually puts him down but in this one he barely landed anything noteworthy.

Ring generalship: Marquez
Clean punching: Marquez
Defense: Marquez
Effective Aggression: Pac was aggressive but he damn sure wasn't effective.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but that card is unfathomable to me.

[kenyan_cheena]

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

I was looking for reasons to give pacquiao rounds, but not as hard as you were. Marquez has always been the better fighter in this match up, Pac usually puts him down but in this one he barely landed anything noteworthy.

Ring generalship: Marquez
Clean punching: Marquez
Defense: Marquez
Effective Aggression: Pac was aggressive but he damn sure wasn't effective.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but that card is unfathomable to me.

I agree, PWill. I can only think of maybe one instant in the whole fight where Pac landed a solid, damaging punch (sometime during or after round 9, I think). To be honest, I felt like I was watching some kind of imposter for much of the fight. He was a shadow of the man who beat DLH, Hatton, Cotto and the others.

[gocubsgo]

So how much of Pac's failure to dominate can be attributed to Marquez ability/plan and how much would you say was Pac just plain not having it? So did we see a Pacman that aged suddenly or was this the case of a really bad game plan by his team? I just wonder if this was just one of those bad plan bad execution fights. It definitely did nothing to pump up the Pac vs Floyd fight. Or maybe Pac planned it that was so that Mayweather would jump at the chance to fight him?

[Boxscribe]

Hey, we've all seen the T-shirts.....

"Manny Knows Boxing"

"Manny Knows Titles"

Well......

Manny knows he lost.............. look at both fighter's reactions at the final bell.

[IceTea]

btown32 said it was well as anyone could. Marquez did what he wanted to do and Manny didn't. I had the fight scored 117-112 (8-3-1) for Marquez. I'm not interested in a fourth meeting between the two, but I believe that Bob Arum will force it upon us. If the PBF vs Manny fight doesn't happen before October 2012, it shouldn't happen at all. That is if Manny actually defeats Marquez if they meet again.