ER scoring bugs not fixed

[mtw]

The release notes for the patch had several lines stating that ER scoring issues were fixed.

However, from playing out a few games and reviewing the box scores of a few simmed games, its unclear whether any of the ER scoring bugs were fixed. The ER scoring bugs are as prevalent as they were before the latest patch.

The game simply seems unable to properly score ER in innings where they are passed balls or fielding errors, other than to score as unearned those runs scored by batters who reached on errors or runs which score after two outs in an inning in which a batter reached safely on an error.

Basically, if a fielding error occurs in an inning, the AI scores as unearned all runs scored by batters who reached base after that error occurred.

Ex.:
1st inning, nobody out:
#1 Double
#2 Single (1st and 3rd)
#3 Reaches on Fielding Error by SS (#1 scores run, 1st and 2nd)
#4 Single (bases loaded)
#5 BB (#2 scores run, bases loaded)
#6 Reaches on FC (#3 scores run, runners on 2nd and 3rd)
End of scoring in inning

This is a simple inning to score, but all runs scored as unearned (only the run scored by #3 is unearned). Ironically, the fielding error is the single biggest contributor to runs improperly scored as unearned in OOTP12.

Another example:
-Bases loaded, nobody out, all runners reached via hit or walk (and without any errors or passed balls in inning to that point), then:
-Single and fielding error on RF, allowing runners to advance an extra base--2 runs score, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Both runs scored as unearned. Likely, both runs would have been scored as earned runs in MLB, but at a minimum at least one run should have been earned.
-Sac fly (1st out of inning)--runner on 3rd scores, scored as unearned. Given that following two batters make outs, this is correct. However, if assumption was that 2nd run to score in inning would have stopped at 3rd but for the error by the RF, then this run would have been earned and the 2nd run unearned.

Another substantial source of faulty unearned run scoring is the passed ball. In OOTP12, all runners who advanced on a passed ball are scored as unearned runs regardless of the event that allows those runners to score (Ex. 1st and 2nd, nobody out, passed ball--runners move to second and third, followed by a triple--both runs scored as unearned when they should be earned runs).

The only scoring bug that I can tell appears to have been fixed is the RBI scoring on a fielding error with two outs. I have not yet seen an RBI is awarded in three chances where pre-patch RBI's were awarded for all runners who scored on a ball in play (except a GiDP).

Again, these ER bugs are not as big a deal if you play modern era baseball. But in early era baseball where errors are frequent, this has a major impact on pitcher ERA's.

If this is the last patch, it's very disappointing these scoring issues weren't fixed.

[BusterKing]

Looks like they're just in a rush to make it a final patch so they can move on to the next release.

Before calling it a final patch maybe they should put some quality control into it first.

[Scoman]

In pre 1900 years in historical leagues era's are off about one run for all pitchers.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Looks like they're just in a rush to make it a final patch so they can move on to the next release.

Before calling it a final patch maybe they should put some quality control into it first.

Well, they did try putting out a beta patch and got shot down for their trouble because the complete fix list wasn't going to be released until a short time later. Even without a fix list some could have tested things they knew needed fixing. Like, oh I don't know, the earned run issues.

Those that would only want to test with a complete list were free to not use the beta, while anyone interested in testing a known\important issue to them could have done so (like the earned\unearned run issues) and reported problems before the final patch was released.

Just saying.

[HercMighty]

You know I am going to say this again. OOTP needs to learn how to do a open public beta. And people need to understand how that works and not to participate if they don't like it.

Look at Galactic Civ 1&2, Elemental etc...

Games where a long development cycle are done with users providing feedback and bug reports. A lot more testing happens, over many different systems and hardware configurations and play styles. In the end Elemental is turning out to be a much better game than what it would have been with just a small Beta team.

If Markus did OOTP 12 as an Open Beta over its dev cycle the release would probably be one of its best, if not the best. Instead I am tired of buying these games just to support this game only to see 2 patches and open issues left from major release to major release.

We have now got what we are going to get with OOTP 11 and to the consumer that just down right sucks with some of these bugs. Let us buy the game, play it knowing its a beta, open a beta forum, have someone monitor and transfer issues to a bug\suggestion tracker and maybe these bugs can finally be squashed and this series can finally move onto actually just making the game better and adding features\eye candy\templates for playing style (you know instead of having all these options you could actually also have the option of choosing a play style ie.. stats only, certain player development or AI play styles).

But your choice Markus, you can keep doing it the way you have or you can try something different...just remember the customer has the same choice....

[Malleus Dei]

"If you do what you've always done, then you get what you've always got."

Accurate stats are the backbone of computer baseball games. The run scoring bugs are not acceptable. They must be fixed for the game stats, and the game, to have any credibility.

Fix them.

[kckid4u]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Well, they did try putting out a beta patch and got shot down for their trouble because the complete fix list wasn't going to be released until a short time later. Even without a fix list some could have tested things they knew needed fixing. Like, oh I don't know, the earned run issues.

Those that would only want to test with a complete list were free to not use the beta, while anyone interested in testing a known\important issue to them could have done so (like the earned\unearned run issues) and reported problems before the final patch was released.

Just saying.

Test? Since when did buying a game include having to be a part of a beta team testing the game so it works correctly? Sorry to tell you, I bought the game to play it, and paid money to do so. No one offered to pay me or to give me a free copy if I tested it. I paid for it. Just like most everyone else here. Why should I be forced to beta test it?

That's just ridiculous. I'm just saying.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

Test? Since when did buying a game include having to be a part of a beta team testing the game so it works correctly? Sorry to tell you, I bought the game to play it, and paid money to do so. No one offered to pay me or to give me a free copy if I tested it. I paid for it. Just like most everyone else here. Why should I be forced to beta test it?

That's just ridiculous. I'm just saying.

He wasn't knocking those members who didn't want to participate. He was knocking the members who complained and forced Markus and Co. to shut the project down.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

He wasn't knocking those members who didn't want to participate. He was knocking the members who complained and forced Markus and Co. to shut the project down.

No one forced them to shut it down. I mentioned to have the list of fixes displayed. When we know what the fixes are in a patch then we can test to see if they are fixed. All of a sudden they locked the thread and removed the link to download the beta patch because we had no right to mention this??? A little childish if you ask me.

Just saying.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

No one forced them to shut it down. I mentioned to have the list of fixes displayed. When we know what the fixes are in a patch then we can test to see if they are fixed. All of a sudden they locked the thread and removed the link to download the beta patch because we had no right to mention this??? A little childish if you ask me.

This is about my view of it too. They posted the beta with no list of what was supposed to be fixed. Seems a little silly to expect even those interested in beta testing to work blind, looking at this, that and the other aspect of the game with no clue as to whether it had even been addressed by the patch. Talk about a needle in a haystack! That's a pretty inefficient way to do any testing, to say the least.

When the beta came up they said there'd be a list of fixes soon. Instead they pulled the whole thing when a few people said they wanted to see the change-list before they did any testing. Bit of an over-reaction I'd say. If they'd just gone ahead and posted the change-list asap, I'm sure the patch would have received some TLC from the community. And I will resist the temptation to say that I'm just sayin' ......

[risp2out]

Playing out games since installing the patch, I have seen exactly the errors reported in the OP. It is disappointing. I agree with MD that this fix should be priority 1. Many other things we'd all like to see are improvements. This is a fix and a crucial one.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

Test? Since when did buying a game include having to be a part of a beta team testing the game so it works correctly? Sorry to tell you, I bought the game to play it, and paid money to do so. No one offered to pay me or to give me a free copy if I tested it. I paid for it. Just like most everyone else here. Why should I be forced to beta test it?

That's just ridiculous. I'm just saying.

Quick, look over your shoulder and describe the man with the gun to your head.

Yeah, didn't think so.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by spitfire

This is about my view of it too. They posted the beta with no list of what was supposed to be fixed. Seems a little silly to expect even those interested in beta testing to work blind, looking at this, that and the other aspect of the game with no clue as to whether it had even been addressed by the patch. Talk about a needle in a haystack! That's a pretty inefficient way to do any testing, to say the least.

When the beta came up they said there'd be a list of fixes soon. Instead they pulled the whole thing when a few people said they wanted to see the change-list before they did any testing. Bit of an over-reaction I'd say. If they'd just gone ahead and posted the change-list asap, I'm sure the patch would have received some TLC from the community. And I will resist the temptation to say that I'm just sayin' ......

Actually there was a preliminary list in the first post.

Originally Posted by Andreas

There is a public BETA version online for build 11.2.20. Currently it's only the exe file for the PC version.

Changes in this build:

- Enhanced selection dropdown for free agency minimum service years to 25 years
- Fixed several issues with the scoring engine for earned/unearned runs
- Introduced user confirmation before resetting history text files to current game date when loading a database, i.e. after a crash
- GMs in online leagues can now create baseball cards for persons with pictures
- Fixed the bug where the same picture was used for multiple players
- The "import photo file" feature is now available even if Facegen is disabled
- Fixed/improved several hardcoded PbP entries
- Fixed many bugs (detailled list will follow)

Seems to have hit some of the main issues that many had including earned runs. Also facegen\graphics, Andreas' area, that many had issue with. My guess is Andreas posted what he knew was fixed to get people testing the face issues he had control over. He clearly posted a list would follow.

A couple of huge issues to test right away if they were your issues. If not you could wait for the list or just test for your pet issue anyway to see if it was touched. IE I would think if I was one of the neutralized stats guys I would look at that with or without a list.


Hardly a needle in a haystack.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Actually there was a preliminary list in the first post.



Seems to have hit some of the main issues that many had including earned runs. Also facegen\graphics, Andreas' area, that many had issue with. My guess is Andreas posted what he knew was fixed to get people testing the face issues he had control over. He clearly posted a list would follow.

A couple of huge issues to test right away if they were your issues. If not you could wait for the list or just test for your pet issue anyway to see if it was touched. IE I would think if I was one of the neutralized stats guys I would look at that with or without a list.


Hardly a needle in a haystack.

Nothing like insisting on being right when you know you're not.

And I'm not just saying.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Nothing like insisting on being right when you know you're not.

And I'm not just saying.

And people say MY generation is spoiled

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

Test? Since when did buying a game include having to be a part of a beta team testing the game so it works correctly? Sorry to tell you, I bought the game to play it, and paid money to do so. No one offered to pay me or to give me a free copy if I tested it. I paid for it. Just like most everyone else here. Why should I be forced to beta test it?

That's just ridiculous. I'm just saying.

Have you ever found a computer game or program in general that didn't put you on its beta team in a manner of speaking? If you have please let me/us know about it.

Even some OS do this (*cough* Windows Vista *cough, cough*) and they have an army of programmers and pour a ton of cash into their efforts. That doesn't prevent these OS from sometimes sucking the great galactic muffin. I'm sure Bill Gates didn't wake up one day and decide he was going to unleash that POS OS on the unsuspecting world, and yet it happened. You pay far more for an OS than for this game and the consequences of it having major bugs are far further reaching than this game having bugs.

Let's face it: every program is as buggy as the programmer(s) who programmed it. If you find the perfect programmer, do let us know about it. He can shove Markus aside and give you the game you want.

Does all this mean you shouldn't bitch and whine when something isn't as it should be in the game? Of course not. How else is the game supposed to get better? Do a search of my posts since this game came out and you'll find plenty of bitching, whining, moaning, and complaining about the zero fielding ratings in historical games using neutralized stats with a modded database (i.e. no .odb file in the stats folder). That doesn't mean I don't understand the reality that Markus is the programming department army of one, at least when it comes to anything stats based in the game.

You pay for the bones of the game, which have expanded each year to include more options and features, while the price has remained reasonable. This year's game works better for some of us than others. For me it doesn't work much at all, but for others apparently it's the best yet. I see it as a 20 current/80 potential rated player: not worth much to me right now, but it could be really awesome if the bugs got fixed up right good.

Would I like to see the legacy issues get cleaned up before more pretty, flashing, dazzling things get added? Um yeah sign me up, but that probably wouldn't attract new customers and new customers might mean Markus could double the size of his army. I won't include the new member of the programming team because (as much as I would like to see him working on the signature product) he's working on iOOTP, which I don't have much use for, so in my eyes the size of the programming department that you are upset with is still stuck at one.

By all means raise your issues. Just try to have a little perspective. Listen to me go on about perspective. Quite a few times since this jalopy came out, I've lost it, but at least I'm still trying.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

And people say MY generation is spoiled

The older generation just don't understand your logic.

[Malleus Dei]

The problem with the attempted public beta was they never did provide the list of bugs that were fixed. Without that full list how could anyone have known what they were testing? How would they have known what to look for or what might be different?

The public beta should never have been posted without a full list of changes. When it was posted without one and people naturally asked for one, the correct response should have been to post the full list, not to pull the beta and run.

The whole thing came across to me as having been very poorly handled.

I'll be happy to do a public beta test, but first they're going to have to tell me exactly what I'm supposed to be testing.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

The older generation just don't understand your logic.

You and a few others complained as soon as you didn't get what you wanted rather than waiting a day.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

And people say MY generation is spoiled

Well, it actually is. Ours, on the other hand, is cranky.