Injuries are just fine

mculberson1973 · 06-04-2009, 03:37 PM

I have to admit, when I first started playing on the "realistic" high injury setting, I was a bit taken back by all the injuries. I figured it had to be a glitch or miscalculation.

But after looking at season totals, I went back and compared to actual team stats and the game sims injuries perfect. Your average team will only have 4-6 players with 500+ ABs, sometimes even less, and until I actually looked at stats from actual seasons this didn't seem right. But it's right.

In the past you could pretty much just plug in players into starting roles and for the most part you were assured they'd get 500+ ABs for the most part, and this just isn't the case in the real world.

I'm running the Astros franchise, and I must say that losing Oswalt and Berkman for extended periods of time in my first season, in addition to a slew of other injuries, made the roster juggling difficult, and at first seemed over the top. But once I looked back at the season stats, ABs were distributed realistically across the board for the league.

All this does is make the game more challenging for us simmers, which I think is awesome. Realism at its best.

Just wanted to comment because I saw a lot of comments on injuries being too excessive, and despite my initial thinking that this was the case, it actually is just right. The proof is in the numbers.

Great game once again Markus and team! Thanks!

Peace

jtnlange · 06-04-2009, 03:40 PM

mculberson1973

What are your other settings, if you don't mind me asking. I am starting up a fictional and am torn between injuries set to normal or high. I read injurylogs posts that High was "realistic" so I kind want to use that setting. Any more insight on what you are seeing would be great.

Trevor

thomamon · 06-04-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mculberson1973

I have to admit, when I first started playing on the "realistic" high injury setting, I was a bit taken back by all the injuries. I figured it had to be a glitch or miscalculation.

But after looking at season totals, I went back and compared to actual team stats and the game sims injuries perfect. Your average team will only have 4-6 players with 500+ ABs, sometimes even less, and until I actually looked at stats from actual seasons this didn't seem right. But it's right.

In the past you could pretty much just plug in players into starting roles and for the most part you were assured they'd get 500+ ABs for the most part, and this just isn't the case in the real world.

I'm running the Astros franchise, and I must say that losing Oswalt and Berkman for extended periods of time in my first season, in addition to a slew of other injuries, made the roster juggling difficult, and at first seemed over the top. But once I looked back at the season stats, ABs were distributed realistically across the board for the league.

All this does is make the game more challenging for us simmers, which I think is awesome. Realism at its best.

Just wanted to comment because I saw a lot of comments on injuries being too excessive, and despite my initial thinking that this was the case, it actually is just right. The proof is in the numbers.

Great game once again Markus and team! Thanks!

Peace

I helped InjuryLog test the system and Markus really nailed the injury system. The percentages of short term, mid length and long term injury are really pretty exact. The only current issue is that long term injuries have to be set to happen to pitchers more, right now the long term injuries to pitchers and batters are about 50/50 from my test.

thomamon · 06-04-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtnlange

mculberson1973

What are your other settings, if you don't mind me asking. I am starting up a fictional and am torn between injuries set to normal or high. I read injurylogs posts that High was "realistic" so I kind want to use that setting. Any more insight on what you are seeing would be great.

Trevor

Its really your own preference here. I think anywhere from OOTP Classic to High both work well. With OOTP Classic setting you will see just a slightly smaller difference, but it may be a bit more enjoyable for play.

mculberson1973 · 06-04-2009, 04:01 PM

I am using the default MLB 09 settings with the injuries set on "Realistic" High.

At first the injuries did seem high, but when I compared the AB#s to past real seasons the numbers matched up really well. My first season I had only 2 players with 500+ABs, but when I looked at other teams they had anywhere from 1 to 6 or 7. And that's right on track with real MLB performances.

When looking at past real seasons, I actually found some teams that had only 1 or 0 players with 500+ABs. But for the most part it's around 4-6.

Trust me, I was concerned at first, and was up untl 3AM last night looking over things to see if something was wrong. But with everything set on default with the MLB 09 setup that comes with the game, injuries are just right. Frequent for sure, but just right.

Fact of the matter is there are a lot of injuries in the MLB and now 140-145 games played for players is pretty much the norm. (That's three weeks of games!) And it's interesting to see, that the more 150+GP a team has, for the most part, the better the season. Which is very realistic. Staying healthy in the MLB is one of the keys to a good season.

I was even interested to see players that are even considered durable, when looking at their career numbers, they had several seasons in the 140-145GP and even some with fewer GP.

I love that you can no longer just insert a player in the lineup and watch him pile up numbers year after year. Now it's much more realistic and challenging for sure.

One thing I am going to look into doing for my team is perhaps paying more attention to rest my players to avoid injuries as much as possible. Hopefullly that helps my team become more successful and avoid the injuries as much as possible.

OldFatGuy · 06-04-2009, 04:08 PM

I always knew the injuries in OOTP were below real life levels, and in an on-line league, I would very much love a realistic injury level (if I played in one). However, "nailing" the injury level, for a solo player, does very little good (in fact more harm than good) if the AI doesn't do a better job of "planning" on these issues, I.E. does a better job of bulding rosters.

I've found time after time after time (in older versions) the AI run out players with all red or orange ratings on a daily basis because it just doesn't have the "depth" on its roster it should. I would love the challenge of realistic injury frequencies, but it's actually not a challenge and in fact a "cheat" for the solo player in older versions because the AI roster depth was so horrid. Any human with a brain could build better depth than the AI, thus making more injuries actually a help to the solo player.

Anyone know if this issue is improved?? I haven't played much at all yet. Just been tinkering with what little time I've had so far. (Although it does seem to be a VERY good release from what I've seen so far). Otherwise, to keep the game as challenging as possible, I'll have to tone down the injury frequency to unrealistic levels.

injury log · 06-04-2009, 05:36 PM

Yeah, the batter/pitcher balance is off - it should be about 75/25 pitchers/batters for injuries over 3 months - but that's a logged issue, and I'm sure that will be adjusted. For now, there will be too many long batter injuries on High, and possibly on Normal/Classic as well.

The AI has certainly improved, and ought to be better at accumulating minor league depth now, but I haven't looked into the extent of the improvements. Would be interesting to know if there are still problems in this area, since if there are, they should be fixed.

kybucki · 06-04-2009, 07:39 PM

I have only played one season but I had 6 guys out for over 8 months at one time. That seems excessive but maybe its just bad luck.

Theonlystd · 06-04-2009, 07:49 PM

Ai appears to be better at building depth but it could just be a fluke

But the Cubs offered me a 20/20 minor league outfielder for David Dejesus who at that time was in my minors.. I had to pay 3mil of his 6mil contract to.

But really that had to be one of the more impressive trades i've seen from the AI. Saved me 3million dollars and got the Cubs outfield depth ..

bababui · 06-04-2009, 07:51 PM

The injury system is highly flawed for people who play out their games. Injuries only happen in game so far in my experience and players are always forced to leave the game regardless of the severity of the injuries. The length of injuries is flawed as has been mentioned before. 6 months plus out for a broken hand is in no way realistic. The injury system might work for simmers but arent realistic for players looking for a day to day baseball experience.

cnrd · 06-04-2009, 07:55 PM

Yeah, I like the way the game sims injuries, too. It's more realistic. Guys go down and the game utilizes the farm system to atone for the injuries. This is what happens in real life. I am happy that it sticks to the realism of the game.

thomamon · 06-04-2009, 07:58 PM

I agree, the new injury system kicks a$$!

bababui · 06-04-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnrd

Yeah, I like the way the game sims injuries, too. It's more realistic. Guys go down and the game utilizes the farm system to atone for the injuries. This is what happens in real life. I am happy that it sticks to the realism of the game.

There is nothing realistic about EVERY injury happening in-game and forcing the player out of the game no matter how minor. But to each his own.

tysok · 06-04-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

The injury system is highly flawed for people who play out their games. Injuries only happen in game so far in my experience and players are always forced to leave the game regardless of the severity of the injuries.

Except for illnesses and the occasional off field injury... this the same as in OOTP9. Previous to OOTP9 ALL injuries occurred on field and the player had to leave the game immediately. I'm not seeing why this is being brought up over and over?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

The length of injuries is flawed as has been mentioned before. 6 months plus out for a broken hand is in no way realistic.

It was brought up in another thread where an injury of the hand did result in a lengthy DL stint. AFAIK there wasn't any discussion that those examples weren't an equivalent? Also I haven't seen where you've stated enough data that your experience couldn't be extremely bad luck, or a statistical fluke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

The injury system might work for simmers but arent realistic for players looking for a day to day baseball experience.

I'm not sure why it would work for simmers but not for those who play out their games. Not that it may not be, I just don't see why. If I were wanting to sim a week at a time but had a severe injury every other day I wouldn't be very happy. But if I were playing all the games I'm not expecting to hit a button and have June done when I get back from the bathroom.

I've seen a couple people show some major injury lists here in the last 2 days. So far nothing has really eclipsed my worst experience ever in OOTP9, where 4 of my 5 man rotation, 2 of my relievers, my CF, my backup OF, both of my ML catchers, my 2B, and my DH/backup IF were all on the DL at the same time... for a 2 week period before they started straggling back in.

That was injuries on normal in OOTP9. In 30 seasons of play in OOTP9 that's the only time it got anywhere near that bad... a statistical anomaly, or very bad luck. Either way, you apparently thought everything was fine in OOTP9...

OldFatGuy · 06-04-2009, 08:23 PM

Here is some interesting data on injuries (at least those requiring trips to the DL) that I think might help in the discussion.

Overall, IMO, most folks really don't realize how many injuries there are in baseball. It's brutal. And if you want realism, then you want brutal. That's just the way it is. But that doesn't mean that OOTP has it right, as this linked study will show that pitcher's account for more time on the DL than ALL OTHER positions combined. Also, as Bababui stated, I think the game could do better by having more of these injuries occurring outside the game, as many, many of them do IRL.

Anyways, just wanted to post this link cause I thought it was interesting.

EDIT: Almost forgot, I wanted to point out that in this study, from 2002-2008 (7 seasons), teams averaged (if I read the bars right) ROUGHLY 15 trips to the DL a year. I don't think I've EVER played an OOTP game where I had 15 trips to the DL in a year.

EDIT2: And also want to question what happens to the overall talent level if changes are made to make pitcher's injury frequency more realistic but no changes are made to how many "quality" pitchers are generated. Does that make sense??? If less pitcher's are available to pitch due to injuries but no changes are made in how many quality ones are available overall, wouldn't that result in the overall talent level being "off"?

thomamon · 06-04-2009, 08:24 PM

If he doesn't like it, he can go ahead and edit the injury.txt to have the long injuries match what they may be in real life. Till then, as long as the %'s are correct for short, mid and long term injuries it doesn't really matter all that much what they are.

mculberson1973 · 06-04-2009, 08:47 PM

I understand your frustration. But wouldn't it be more frustrating if you played out all your games and all the injuries actually happened off the field through emails? I would think this would be more unrealistic than the injuries actually happening on the field.

And if you think players don't come out automatically when injured in the games then you don't watch a lot of baseball. Players leave games for the most minor issues to play it safe all the time. These guys make a lot of money and they are huge investments so it's not like football where they play through injuries all the time. They take days off all the time over injuries we never hear about, in addition to the DL types.

I shared in your frustration initially when I started things because it felt like I was getting way too many injuries. After looking over the numbers, and seeing the real life full season results of past seasons, I realized this is actually the norm. OOTP just plays more like real life now with regards to injuries.

I don't know how much this will help, but you can always turn the setting down like others have stated. And I do believe that while the overall injury engine is great, it does need to be tweaked a little in regards to pitchers versus Hitters, because pitchers have more long term injuries than hitters for sure.

Simply put, OOTP is much more frustrating now to play, because it plays much more like real life, but this is a good thing. Adds to the challenge of running a team. But I'm a simmer, so I don't have your perspective of the in game injuries. I'm sure that would be frustrating as well, but certainly not unrealistic.

Matter2003 · 06-04-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by injury log

Yeah, the batter/pitcher balance is off - it should be about 75/25 pitchers/batters for injuries over 3 months - but that's a logged issue, and I'm sure that will be adjusted. For now, there will be too many long batter injuries on High, and possibly on Normal/Classic as well.

The AI has certainly improved, and ought to be better at accumulating minor league depth now, but I haven't looked into the extent of the improvements. Would be interesting to know if there are still problems in this area, since if there are, they should be fixed.

I guess my PM's to Markus along with injury log's great studies finally paid off

actionjackson · 06-04-2009, 11:41 PM

I'm in a 1901 historical and injuries will be turned off until teams get some roster depth. Right now, there are no teams with a 40-man roster. The teams range from the White Sox and OFG's beloved Senators at 18 players

to the Cincinnati Reds at 32. But, fatigue will be set to the highest setting to compensate somewhat. That's an interesting comment OFG about the AI not being able to think through depth issues properly, thus granting the human in a solo league a huge advantage. I hadn't considered that before. I'm not one to whine about injuries to my own team, but if the injury settings cause issues with the AI teams because they regard depth as a four letter word, then I, the human am going to have an advantage.

A little off topic, but still to do with AI roster management, I remember one season I played in OOTP 5 (I know it's old) where the White Sox went most of one season with 1 LF, 0 CF, and 1 RF. They played a pitcher in CF.

Needless to say the White Sox were gunning for the number 1 draft pick that year and probably would've got it easily, had I completed it, but then OOTP X came out. Free OOTP 5? What free OOTP 5?

LeiterFanatic · 06-04-2009, 11:50 PM

LOL IN my 1992 league, Jay Howell was just suspended for drugs. Amazingly accurate!

06-04-2009, 03:37 PM	#1
mculberson1973 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	Injuries are just fine I have to admit, when I first started playing on the "realistic" high injury setting, I was a bit taken back by all the injuries. I figured it had to be a glitch or miscalculation. But after looking at season totals, I went back and compared to actual team stats and the game sims injuries perfect. Your average team will only have 4-6 players with 500+ ABs, sometimes even less, and until I actually looked at stats from actual seasons this didn't seem right. But it's right. In the past you could pretty much just plug in players into starting roles and for the most part you were assured they'd get 500+ ABs for the most part, and this just isn't the case in the real world. I'm running the Astros franchise, and I must say that losing Oswalt and Berkman for extended periods of time in my first season, in addition to a slew of other injuries, made the roster juggling difficult, and at first seemed over the top. But once I looked back at the season stats, ABs were distributed realistically across the board for the league. All this does is make the game more challenging for us simmers, which I think is awesome. Realism at its best. Just wanted to comment because I saw a lot of comments on injuries being too excessive, and despite my initial thinking that this was the case, it actually is just right. The proof is in the numbers. Great game once again Markus and team! Thanks! Peace

06-04-2009, 04:01 PM	#5
mculberson1973 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	Settings I am using the default MLB 09 settings with the injuries set on "Realistic" High. At first the injuries did seem high, but when I compared the AB#s to past real seasons the numbers matched up really well. My first season I had only 2 players with 500+ABs, but when I looked at other teams they had anywhere from 1 to 6 or 7. And that's right on track with real MLB performances. When looking at past real seasons, I actually found some teams that had only 1 or 0 players with 500+ABs. But for the most part it's around 4-6. Trust me, I was concerned at first, and was up untl 3AM last night looking over things to see if something was wrong. But with everything set on default with the MLB 09 setup that comes with the game, injuries are just right. Frequent for sure, but just right. Fact of the matter is there are a lot of injuries in the MLB and now 140-145 games played for players is pretty much the norm. (That's three weeks of games!) And it's interesting to see, that the more 150+GP a team has, for the most part, the better the season. Which is very realistic. Staying healthy in the MLB is one of the keys to a good season. I was even interested to see players that are even considered durable, when looking at their career numbers, they had several seasons in the 140-145GP and even some with fewer GP. I love that you can no longer just insert a player in the lineup and watch him pile up numbers year after year. Now it's much more realistic and challenging for sure. One thing I am going to look into doing for my team is perhaps paying more attention to rest my players to avoid injuries as much as possible. Hopefullly that helps my team become more successful and avoid the injuries as much as possible.

06-04-2009, 04:08 PM	#6
OldFatGuy All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern Va., Loudoun County Posts: 1,895	I always knew the injuries in OOTP were below real life levels, and in an on-line league, I would very much love a realistic injury level (if I played in one). However, "nailing" the injury level, for a solo player, does very little good (in fact more harm than good) if the AI doesn't do a better job of "planning" on these issues, I.E. does a better job of bulding rosters. I've found time after time after time (in older versions) the AI run out players with all red or orange ratings on a daily basis because it just doesn't have the "depth" on its roster it should. I would love the challenge of realistic injury frequencies, but it's actually not a challenge and in fact a "cheat" for the solo player in older versions because the AI roster depth was so horrid. Any human with a brain could build better depth than the AI, thus making more injuries actually a help to the solo player. Anyone know if this issue is improved?? I haven't played much at all yet. Just been tinkering with what little time I've had so far. (Although it does seem to be a VERY good release from what I've seen so far). Otherwise, to keep the game as challenging as possible, I'll have to tone down the injury frequency to unrealistic levels. __________________ I believed in drug testing a long time ago. In the 60's I tested everything. - Bill Lee

06-04-2009, 08:23 PM	#15
OldFatGuy All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern Va., Loudoun County Posts: 1,895	Here is some interesting data on injuries (at least those requiring trips to the DL) that I think might help in the discussion. Overall, IMO, most folks really don't realize how many injuries there are in baseball. It's brutal. And if you want realism, then you want brutal. That's just the way it is. But that doesn't mean that OOTP has it right, as this linked study will show that pitcher's account for more time on the DL than ALL OTHER positions combined. Also, as Bababui stated, I think the game could do better by having more of these injuries occurring outside the game, as many, many of them do IRL. Anyways, just wanted to post this link cause I thought it was interesting. EDIT: Almost forgot, I wanted to point out that in this study, from 2002-2008 (7 seasons), teams averaged (if I read the bars right) ROUGHLY 15 trips to the DL a year. I don't think I've EVER played an OOTP game where I had 15 trips to the DL in a year. EDIT2: And also want to question what happens to the overall talent level if changes are made to make pitcher's injury frequency more realistic but no changes are made to how many "quality" pitchers are generated. Does that make sense??? If less pitcher's are available to pitch due to injuries but no changes are made in how many quality ones are available overall, wouldn't that result in the overall talent level being "off"? __________________ I believed in drug testing a long time ago. In the 60's I tested everything. - Bill Lee Last edited by OldFatGuy; 06-04-2009 at 08:35 PM.

06-04-2009, 08:47 PM	#17
mculberson1973 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 34	To bababui I understand your frustration. But wouldn't it be more frustrating if you played out all your games and all the injuries actually happened off the field through emails? I would think this would be more unrealistic than the injuries actually happening on the field. And if you think players don't come out automatically when injured in the games then you don't watch a lot of baseball. Players leave games for the most minor issues to play it safe all the time. These guys make a lot of money and they are huge investments so it's not like football where they play through injuries all the time. They take days off all the time over injuries we never hear about, in addition to the DL types. I shared in your frustration initially when I started things because it felt like I was getting way too many injuries. After looking over the numbers, and seeing the real life full season results of past seasons, I realized this is actually the norm. OOTP just plays more like real life now with regards to injuries. I don't know how much this will help, but you can always turn the setting down like others have stated. And I do believe that while the overall injury engine is great, it does need to be tweaked a little in regards to pitchers versus Hitters, because pitchers have more long term injuries than hitters for sure. Simply put, OOTP is much more frustrating now to play, because it plays much more like real life, but this is a good thing. Adds to the challenge of running a team. But I'm a simmer, so I don't have your perspective of the in game injuries. I'm sure that would be frustrating as well, but certainly not unrealistic.

06-04-2009, 03:40 PM	#2
jtnlange Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Racine,WI Posts: 261	mculberson1973 What are your other settings, if you don't mind me asking. I am starting up a fictional and am torn between injuries set to normal or high. I read injurylogs posts that High was "realistic" so I kind want to use that setting. Any more insight on what you are seeing would be great. Trevor

06-04-2009, 05:36 PM	#7
injury log Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 9,162	Yeah, the batter/pitcher balance is off - it should be about 75/25 pitchers/batters for injuries over 3 months - but that's a logged issue, and I'm sure that will be adjusted. For now, there will be too many long batter injuries on High, and possibly on Normal/Classic as well. The AI has certainly improved, and ought to be better at accumulating minor league depth now, but I haven't looked into the extent of the improvements. Would be interesting to know if there are still problems in this area, since if there are, they should be fixed.

06-04-2009, 07:39 PM	#8
kybucki Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 45	I have only played one season but I had 6 guys out for over 8 months at one time. That seems excessive but maybe its just bad luck.

06-04-2009, 07:49 PM	#9
Theonlystd Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 159	Ai appears to be better at building depth but it could just be a fluke But the Cubs offered me a 20/20 minor league outfielder for David Dejesus who at that time was in my minors.. I had to pay 3mil of his 6mil contract to. But really that had to be one of the more impressive trades i've seen from the AI. Saved me 3million dollars and got the Cubs outfield depth ..

06-04-2009, 07:55 PM	#11
cnrd Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39	Yeah, I like the way the game sims injuries, too. It's more realistic. Guys go down and the game utilizes the farm system to atone for the injuries. This is what happens in real life. I am happy that it sticks to the realism of the game.

06-04-2009, 07:58 PM	#12
thomamon Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 5,274	I agree, the new injury system kicks a$$!

06-04-2009, 08:24 PM	#16
thomamon Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 5,274	If he doesn't like it, he can go ahead and edit the injury.txt to have the long injuries match what they may be in real life. Till then, as long as the %'s are correct for short, mid and long term injuries it doesn't really matter all that much what they are.

06-04-2009, 11:41 PM	#19
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,181	I'm in a 1901 historical and injuries will be turned off until teams get some roster depth. Right now, there are no teams with a 40-man roster. The teams range from the White Sox and OFG's beloved Senators at 18 players to the Cincinnati Reds at 32. But, fatigue will be set to the highest setting to compensate somewhat. That's an interesting comment OFG about the AI not being able to think through depth issues properly, thus granting the human in a solo league a huge advantage. I hadn't considered that before. I'm not one to whine about injuries to my own team, but if the injury settings cause issues with the AI teams because they regard depth as a four letter word, then I, the human am going to have an advantage. A little off topic, but still to do with AI roster management, I remember one season I played in OOTP 5 (I know it's old) where the White Sox went most of one season with 1 LF, 0 CF, and 1 RF. They played a pitcher in CF. Needless to say the White Sox were gunning for the number 1 draft pick that year and probably would've got it easily, had I completed it, but then OOTP X came out. Free OOTP 5? What free OOTP 5?

06-04-2009, 11:50 PM	#20
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,348	LOL IN my 1992 league, Jay Howell was just suspended for drugs. Amazingly accurate!