Kobe Bryan is better than Michael Jordan - Page 5

jmaness84 · 02-27-2003, 07:34 PM

ok.... If Shaq played back then, could he score 100 points? All im trying to imply is that Wilt had a substantial height advantage when he played, now he wouldnt. You cant honestly say that the basketball players when Wilt played are better than the basketball players now. [joke]They actually had white guys in basketball back then, now we only see white guys when affirmative action sets in. [/joke]

Dwolfson20 · 02-27-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
All im trying to imply is that Wilt had a substantial height advantage when he played, now he wouldnt.

Ugh... this is what people have been telling you for this entire thread. Yes, he had a size advantage when he played. Yes, he would still have that same size advantage if he played today. This is what you continually fail to understand.

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
You cant honestly say that the basketball players when Wilt played are better than the basketball players now.

Dunno if players in general were better, there were fewer teams and talent was concentrated much moreso. However, centers were better in the Sixties. They knew how to play with their backs to the basket, were more fundamentally sound and had no illusions about being small forwards. Your average starting center in '68 averaged 18 ppg. and 10 rpg., in 2002 those numbers are down to 10 ppg. and 5 rpg.

In todays NBA, the center position provides the fewest PPG by a wide margin of any of the five positions and that is with Shaq's superlative numbers factored in. Remove him from the equation and it would look even more horrible.

jmaness84 · 02-27-2003, 07:46 PM

No he wouldnt. He wouldnt be playing against Centers that are 6'6. If he played now he would have some size disadvantages like playing against shaq (although same size ways more), Yao, Dikembe Mutombo etc. Anybody know the average height for a center and the average height for a professional basketball player when Wilt played?? How many seven footers played back then???
Now just about every NBA team has a 7 footer, some have more than one.

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
Now just about every NBA team has a 7 footer, some have more than one.

How many good 7-footers are there in the NBA at present?

I can't recall a 6'6 center in the NBA from that or any other era other than Wes Unseld and he would be highly effective, much like Mr. Barkley, in any era.

Dwolfson20 · 02-27-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by darkhorse
How many good 7-footers are there in the NBA at present?

Even better, darkhorse... how many good 7-foot centers are there in the NBA at present?

vtbub · 02-27-2003, 08:04 PM

Height doesn't mean skill. Wilt dominated games because of his skill. Besides Shaq, the center position is weak at best. Shaq didn't average 4.5 assists per game. Both Russell and Chamberlain did. Russell and Chamberlain had specific roles to play. Darkhorse is right, Chamberlain had to carry more of the burden than Russell. There isn't a center in the NBA today that could average 22 rebounds a game and 4.5 assists, block assists weren't even counted.

If shear height was the best indicator of skill then we would be talking about the best player in NBA history, Manute Bol.

I'll say it again, the NBA is a glorified one on one league, teams today could not beat any team that was an NBA finalist from 1960-1990.

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 08:08 PM

Wilt Chamberlain is also the only center in the history of the NBA to lead the league in assists. The man could do anything, his physical talent and skill level were outrageous. Was a Big 8 conference champion in the 440.

jmaness84 · 02-27-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

If shear height was the best indicator of skill then we would be talking about the best player in NBA history, Manute Bol.

Whoa..Whoa..Whoa i never said that height had everything to do with it. However it has something to do with it. Im just saying his height advantage was a factor in him dominating when he played. When Wilt played im sure he played against guys a half foot shorter than he was. Have you guys ever played a game of basketball against a guy thats a half foot shorter than you are, even if the guy has the same basketball abilities? If he played now he wouldnt have that luxery.. thats all im trying to say.

darkhorse · 02-27-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
When Wilt played im sure he played against guys a half foot shorter than he was.

Was the average NBA center during the Sixties, 6'7? LOL.

magicmike · 02-27-2003, 11:18 PM

Wow. Haven't been to the board in a few days and I'm shocked to see what I started by my comment about Wilt being the best. Remember, Wilt matched up against guys like Walt Bellamy, 6'11", Bob Lanier. 6'11", Alcindor/Jabbar, 7'2" , and skilled shorter centers like Willis Reed and Wes Unseld. Except for Shaq and (maybe?) David Robinson, how many of today's centers would have consistent success against those guys? Not many, I'd wager.

I remember one game when Wilt, perturbed at comments that had been made in the press about his selfish offensive game, decided to prove a point and went out and dished 20-something assists. Remember that he played guard for the Globetrotters before he went to the NBA.

Wilt was also a champion track athlete, a world-class volleyball player, heavily recruited (although he never did do it) to play tight end in the NFL, and he even boxed professionally. These things highlight his freakish skill and versatility as an athlete. A team of 5 Wilts would destroy a team of 5 Jordans, 5 Birds, 5 Shaqs, whoever, primarily because of his skill.

jmaness84 · 02-27-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Was the average NBA center during the Sixties, 6'7? LOL

Well do you know what the average height for a center was back then?? Its pretty safe to say that players now are faster, stronger, and bigger than they used to be. Im not diminishing Wilt's skills what so ever. Im just trying to say his height advantage was a lot more prominent back when he played than it would be if he played now. Wilt used his height advantage over smaller players when he played, he couldnt do it that much if he played today, thats all im saying. Bottom Line is that players are bigger today then they were when Wilt played. Because of this he couldnt use his height to his advantage as much if he played it todays NBA. This might have some relevance.... The Great football teams of the 50s couldnt match up with a mediocre college team now. Why?? Because players are faster, stronger, and bigger then they used to be.

Dwolfson20 · 02-28-2003, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaness84
If he played now he wouldnt have that luxery.. thats all im trying to say.

For the last friggin' time, yes he would. Get it in your head.

cody8200 · 02-28-2003, 12:36 AM

Wilt was the best big man, no doubt about that. Much much better than Shaq...but Jordan was by far the most dominant, important, and talented player to ever play the game.

magicmike · 02-28-2003, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Wilt was the best big man, no doubt about that. Much much better than Shaq...but Jordan was by far the most dominant, important, and talented player to ever play the game.

Hmmm . . . hard to argue with that, but I'll try

I believe Wilt was the most dominant individual player ever. He had seasons when he alternately led the league in scoring, rebounding and assists. Averaged more than 50 ppg. Averaged more than 27 rpg. Averaged more than 48 minutes per game played (playing overtime games and missing only a total of 8 minutes in an entire 82 game season). In 14 years he never fouled out of a game, never lost his cool despite the fact that opposing teams pounded the hell out of him to send him to the line. And for all his scoring records don't forget that for the second half of his career he changed his game, gradually and ultimately abandoning shooting to concentrate on defense and rebounding, letting guys like Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Gale Goodrich do the scoring. Second most dominant individual player? Oscar Robertson.

And as the Big O himself put it when he was asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The books don't lie."

Most important player? Maybe Jordan, because not only was he a great player but he achieved (with the help of Nike's marketing machine) a level of broad-based commercial appeal that no other athlete (not even Tiger Woods) ever has or maybe ever will. The NBA grew in international popularity mainly because of Jordan. The most important time for the NBA though was really the Magic/Bird years.

And who's the most talented? Maybe Connie Hawkins or somebody like that

Really, I don't know, but I think what made Jordan special was his unique combination of extremely high levels of talent, skill, work ethic, competitive drive, self-confidence, charisma, physical ability, and situation. I'm just happy I got to watch him play for so many years.

darkhorse · 02-28-2003, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by magicmike
And as the Big O himself put it when he was asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The books don't lie."

That pretty much sums it up for me. Don't care if he could score 100 points in a game today or average 50 points a game for a season today. I do believe with a strong conviction because of his achievements that he was the best ever by a significant margin. No no who has ever played the game, including Jordan, comes close and Wilt has the NBA record book, which his name dominates, to document those unmatched accomplishments.

You can adjust his numbers for era, higher scoring, more rebounds, and his still are the best by a large margin.

02-27-2003, 08:08 PM	#88
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Wilt Chamberlain is also the only center in the history of the NBA to lead the league in assists. The man could do anything, his physical talent and skill level were outrageous. Was a Big 8 conference champion in the 440. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

02-27-2003, 11:18 PM	#91
magicmike Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hawaii Posts: 365	Wow. Haven't been to the board in a few days and I'm shocked to see what I started by my comment about Wilt being the best. Remember, Wilt matched up against guys like Walt Bellamy, 6'11", Bob Lanier. 6'11", Alcindor/Jabbar, 7'2" , and skilled shorter centers like Willis Reed and Wes Unseld. Except for Shaq and (maybe?) David Robinson, how many of today's centers would have consistent success against those guys? Not many, I'd wager. I remember one game when Wilt, perturbed at comments that had been made in the press about his selfish offensive game, decided to prove a point and went out and dished 20-something assists. Remember that he played guard for the Globetrotters before he went to the NBA. Wilt was also a champion track athlete, a world-class volleyball player, heavily recruited (although he never did do it) to play tight end in the NFL, and he even boxed professionally. These things highlight his freakish skill and versatility as an athlete. A team of 5 Wilts would destroy a team of 5 Jordans, 5 Birds, 5 Shaqs, whoever, primarily because of his skill. __________________ aloha and mahalo HCBL Kansas City Royals 2003 AL Central Champs SMLB Houston Astros VLB Anaheim Angels UBL Pittsburgh Pirates "Barry Bonds? I'll tell you what, if he hit a home run off (Bob) Gibson or (Don) Drysdale and stood and admired it, they'd knock that earring out of his ear the next time up." - National League Umpire Doug Harvey

02-28-2003, 12:36 AM	#94
cody8200 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,436	Wilt was the best big man, no doubt about that. Much much better than Shaq...but Jordan was by far the most dominant, important, and talented player to ever play the game. __________________ Sharp Guys Web Design - Twitter: @sharpguysweb

02-27-2003, 07:34 PM	#81
jmaness84 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,685	ok.... If Shaq played back then, could he score 100 points? All im trying to imply is that Wilt had a substantial height advantage when he played, now he wouldnt. You cant honestly say that the basketball players when Wilt played are better than the basketball players now. [joke]They actually had white guys in basketball back then, now we only see white guys when affirmative action sets in. [/joke]

02-27-2003, 07:46 PM	#84
jmaness84 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,685	No he wouldnt. He wouldnt be playing against Centers that are 6'6. If he played now he would have some size disadvantages like playing against shaq (although same size ways more), Yao, Dikembe Mutombo etc. Anybody know the average height for a center and the average height for a professional basketball player when Wilt played?? How many seven footers played back then??? Now just about every NBA team has a 7 footer, some have more than one.

02-27-2003, 08:04 PM	#87
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Height doesn't mean skill. Wilt dominated games because of his skill. Besides Shaq, the center position is weak at best. Shaq didn't average 4.5 assists per game. Both Russell and Chamberlain did. Russell and Chamberlain had specific roles to play. Darkhorse is right, Chamberlain had to carry more of the burden than Russell. There isn't a center in the NBA today that could average 22 rebounds a game and 4.5 assists, block assists weren't even counted. If shear height was the best indicator of skill then we would be talking about the best player in NBA history, Manute Bol. I'll say it again, the NBA is a glorified one on one league, teams today could not beat any team that was an NBA finalist from 1960-1990.