Cannot Demote Major Leaguers

[battists]

OK, I got it, I think.

Here's what I did with my friend from above, Xavier Conn (abbreviated, "X. Conn" heh ):

He still has 1 option left at this point

1. Waived him
2. DFAed him, taking him off the 40-man in the process
3. He cleared waivers
4. I tried to demote him to AAA, and got the dreaded error "This player has to be on the 40-man roster because he has a major league contract."

What you're saying is, at this point, this error is wrong. He should be on my AAA club, and NOT on the 40-man, but with his major league contract intact. OR, if he had the right to refuse, he could have refused at this point, forcing me to put him back on the 40-man, trade, or release him. Is that correct?

Now, what impact does the 1 option have?

(BTW, let's throw out what 6.5 did. I want this to work as MLB does, as closely as possible!)

[battists]

I've logged this, BTW, as TT # 2374.

[afail]

correct - 5+ years of service can refuse and contract converts to a minor league contract if in the minors once the major league contract expires.

Note that X. Conn didn't have to be DFA'ed since he had an option, but you correctly reproduced the bug

[battists]

Afail, since you seem so good at this, any chance you could test this particular piece, just to see if it works correctly?

Originally Posted by afail

contract converts to a minor league contract if in the minors once the major league contract expires.

[Slotback81]

Originally Posted by battists

Now, what impact does the 1 option have?

As long as the player has options, whether he has 1, 2 or 3 option years left, he can be sent to the minors without having to clear waivers. It has zero impact on whether or not he is on the 40 man roster.

Once a player is out of option years, he must clear waivers before being sent to the minors, whether or not you want him to remain on your 40 man roster.

[battists]

Originally Posted by Slotback81

As long as the player has options, whether he has 1, 2 or 3 option years left, he can be sent to the minors without having to clear waivers. It has zero impact on whether or not he is on the 40 man roster.

Once a player is out of option years, he must clear waivers before being sent to the minors, whether or not you want him to remain on your 40 man roster.

Isn't it hilarious that I wrote the section of the Game Guide on this stuff?

To be fair, Mr Workrate (who I would have expected to show up here by now) knows all about such things, and he provided most of that content.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by battists

What you're saying is, at this point, this error is wrong. He should be on my AAA club, and NOT on the 40-man, but with his major league contract intact. OR, if he had the right to refuse, he could have refused at this point, forcing me to put him back on the 40-man, trade, or release him. Is that correct?

Basically. It can get even more complicated as far as the major league contract and when he should keep it and when he should move back to a minor league contract, but right now the important thing is that he should be able to go back to the minors.

Now, what impact does the 1 option have?

The option means he can't refuse the assignment to the minors and doesn't need to clear waivers in order to be sent down, he still has an option so the team can option him down without needing his permission. If he were out of options, he would have the right to refuse and then force the team to trade/release/place him on 25-man.

[afail]

Originally Posted by battists

Afail, since you seem so good at this, any chance you could test this particular piece, just to see if it works correctly?

sure, i would be happy to test this tonight -- i would also be interested in beta testing if you need somoene since I am savvy on these Baseball rules and have found probably 15 bugs first in 2006.

[Zeyes]

contract converts to a minor league contract if in the minors once the major league contract expires.

In a quick test, this works for a player below the arbitration minimum time. He had an automatically assigned Major League contract, I demoted him to AAA shortly before the end of the season, and he was auto-signed to a minor league contract in the off-season.

Another guy with arbitration eligibility received a new contract through arbitration even though he was only on the 40-man roster, but not the 25-man. I have no idea if this is correct behaviour...anyone? (He definitely should not go through arbitration if he was off the 40-man roster, but we obviously can't test that right now.)

[afail]

Originally Posted by Zeyes

In a quick test, this works for a player below the arbitration minimum time. He had an automatically assigned Major League contract, I demoted him to AAA shortly before the end of the season, and he was auto-signed to a minor league contract in the off-season.

Another guy with arbitration eligibility received a new contract through arbitration even though he was only on the 40-man roster, but not the 25-man. I have no idea if this is correct behaviour...anyone? (He definitely should not go through arbitration if he was off the 40-man roster, but we obviously can't test that right now.)

it depends -- in the MLB if the player accumulates more then 3 years of service time and less then 6 years, hes eligible regardless of what level in your organization he is at. But the clock stops when he is sent to the minor leagues.

as far as OOTP goes, i think it handles service time perfectly because it says a player could "possibly" be eligible

I know there have been a few cases where players were returned to the minors on small market teams right before they went over 3 years to finish out a season so that they could avoid arbitration

[Zeyes]

Originally Posted by afail

it depends -- in the MLB if the player accumulates more then 3 years of service time and less then 6 years, hes eligible regardless of what level in your organization he is at.

Even if he's not actually on the 40-man roster? Just making sure I understand you correctly...as I said, I can see the logic of extending arbitration benefits to players who are in not in the Majors, but are on the 40-man roster. (That makes them members of MLBPA, right?)

Originally Posted by afail

as far as OOTP goes, i think it handles service time perfectly because it says a player could "possibly" be eligible

No, this player was already beyond 3 years of MLB service time, and was listed as "arbitration eligible in offseason". The model works, I'm just trying to ascertain that the consequences are correct - or rather, that they will still be correct once we're able to outright players off the 40-man.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by Zeyes

Even if he's not actually on the 40-man roster? Just making sure I understand you correctly...as I said, I can see the logic of extending arbitration benefits to players who are in not in the Majors, but are on the 40-man roster. (That makes them members of MLBPA, right?)

I can't say for sure but I'd guess that they are still arb eligible because of the service time. I'd also guess none of these players get to arb becasue their team either resigns them to a minor league deal or releases the player before the arb deadline.

[MrWorkrate]

Trying to catch up here - and damn Steve, sometimes I do leave the house

Regarding your previous example, players with option years remaining can be demoted to the minors freely if they're left on the 40 man roster. They do not have to be placed on waivers, just demoted.

If a team wants to take a player off the 40 man roster (outrighting him), waivers and DFA would both be necessary - waivers because a player cannot be outrighted without clearing waivers, and DFA to open up the 40 man slot. DFA makes the roster move more immedate - if a major league team needs a shortstop and the shortstop they want to call up isn't on the 40 man roster, a team can DFA someone immedately to pull the player off the 40 man so that the shortstop can be placed on and used immedately without having to wait for the player who has been outrighted to clear waivers.

The issue that's been discussed is once that player has been outrighted and has cleared waivers, the player can't then be placed in the minors (assuming that he's accepted assignment) because he has a major league contract. This is something left over from the previous DFA, as DFA became the limbo area where recently acquired players were placed (like a free agent signee). The block that was used for DFA preventing a player with a major league contract to be assigned without placing him on the 40 man roster was something that was left over from the free agency DFA. Players signed to a major league contract must start off on the 40 man roster; however, they can be later outrighted off the 40 man if they clear and accept assignment.

What's happening here is that the player is being outrighted with a major league contract, so he's being placed in DFA (as he should be). However, once he clears, the sim is treating that DFA player as it would a newly signed free agent, and won't allow him to be assigned to the minors.

What you'd probably need is a flag that would designate the difference between an outrighted player and a newly signed FA.

[Zeyes]

Originally Posted by MrWorkrate

What you'd probably need is a flag that would designate the difference between an outrighted player and a newly signed FA.

Given that the game already keeps track of each player's waiver status (it even shows up in the player profiles), that flag is pretty much there already.

Thanks for jumping into the thread.

[wish7694]

Originally Posted by afail

If a player is given a major league contract at the minimum, then sent to AAA, THE NEXT SEASON he should receive a minor league contract (99% sure on this). He should not accumulate any major league service time despite a major league contract if he is not on the 25 man roster as well.

A small issue relative to being able to remove from 40 man completely but the league minimum contract guys sign for the first three years is NOT GAURANTEED. They are only paid a prorated amount based on their time on the 25 man roster. Justin Mosely who maid an emergency start for the Angels does not continue to get paid $350K for the rest of the year because he was on the roster for one day. He is still on the 40 man, back in AAA, and gets a nice bonus check for ones day work. It makes sense if you think about it.

[MrRazor16]

Just read through this whole thread...have been experiencing the same issue.

The only way I am finding to get around the bug right now is to go through the whole process of "placing on waivers - clear waivers - remove from 40 man and outright to minors" -- is to switch into "Commissioner" mode -- and change that guy you want to remove from the 40-man to a minor league contract in the editor.

I understand, however, that this leads to a whole host of other problems.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Fixed

[battists]

Markus has claimed that this issue will be fixed in 1.0.3. However, we have not yet received a test version of 1.0.3 with which to verify.

Thanks very much,

Steve