Creative Contracts

DHS23 · 06-11-2006, 09:20 PM

Has anyone actually had something like this work for them in dealing with certain players? It seems as if the bonuses and options would be great for an injury prone player. Does the player AI recognize this and accept lower guaranteed offers with a higher incentive?

Also, is it possible to have more than just one bonus on a contract?

William4192 · 06-11-2006, 10:42 PM

another great question, i'd like some feedback on also

DHS23 · 06-13-2006, 10:45 PM

bump

Giants44 · 06-14-2006, 12:52 AM

I only have one example so this is hardly a scientific study.

at the end of 2006 Barry Bonds contract had expired and I was not interested in giving him 21M for 3 years as he was asking for.

It is worth noting that since the game doesn't recognize the steroid controversy (this is NOT a complaint about the game, just information) and all that I have chose within the game to pretend it doesn't exist and my primary reason for not wanting to commit 3 x 20 is Barry was injury prone and only a shadow of his former self - he hit .279 with 29 homers and 80 - hardly a 60M man.

so I tried giving him a one year deal at 15M with a team option for year 2 and a MVP bonus of 10M. I figured if he returned to MVP form I would happily pay him 25M if not 15M is not bad. He didn't go for, even though the potential payout was higher per year then he was asking. I actually took the option off and tried a mutual option and still he was not interested.

In the end - he signed with the Yankees - 3 years - 13M per and was AL player of the month in April hitting .352 with 9 homers.

He should have stayed in SF he would have made more money.

I think it is important to say that I don't post this as a complaint on the AI - the Bonds issue even without steroids is a complicated one and I have not problems at all with the way the game handled this. I do think the way it played out is the of reality.

Cras · 06-14-2006, 12:54 AM

I would hazard a guess that getting the AI to respond well to such creative deals has to be one of the hardest aspects to get right.

Giants44 · 06-14-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cras

I would hazard a guess that getting the AI to respond well to such creative deals has to be one of the hardest aspects to get right.

I would with that - it would be nice at some point, but would be way down my priority list.

William4192 · 06-15-2006, 03:27 PM

It is great to hear these stories.

Linenoise · 06-15-2006, 04:01 PM

I tried to circumvent the "we will not trade for overpaid vertern players" anti-cheat protocol by attempting to sign a player to a 4 year contract that essentially front loaded the contract. Something like 15m for the 1st 3 years and 10m for the last year. The team Owner called me out on it however as he likes the money to be spread out fairly evenly.

I was happy to see that Marcus & Co. were one step ahead of me in this regard. At first I was upset I could not do this but after a brief complaint to a friend of mine it was made clear to me how easily exploitable this is. However a part of me still contends that being able to trade good middle aged players with cheap 1-2 yr contracts is not all bad for either party.

Aside from that I'd like to see more bonus options (like in FM) and I suspect we shall see more options implemented in the future (after many more important things are addressed first - ie; OOTP 2007 probably).

Hotwheelz · 06-15-2006, 04:05 PM

There was a 20 year old 3B who was nearly ready for the big leagues and had a very high upside in the free agent pool. Thinking he would take a minor league deal I tried that. Nope. He wanted a 1 year contract at 1.7 mil. So I offer him a 3 year contract worth 350K per season with a bonus of 1.5 mil if he reaches 500 AB. There is a no trade clause and a mutual option for the third season. I figure this is a low risk deal if he doesnt pan out and if he does.... 1.8 mil a season for this kind of talent is not bad.

molarmite · 06-15-2006, 04:13 PM

Well I don't think they'd put it in if it didn't do anything.

trapper · 06-15-2006, 04:44 PM

I've had trouble getting this to make sense as well. In my firsts (and only) franchise I had an ace pitcher who was becoming a UFA at age 28. He was one of the top starting pitchers in the league and the all time strikeout leader in my 10 year old league. He wanted $15,000,000 for 4 years.

I offered him 4 years with a player option, and a no trade clause. First I made each year worth $10,000,000 with a $5,000,000 bonus for 150 innings pitched. He declined. I'm thinking since the guy has no injury history and 150 innings is not a lot for an ace, he should accept. So then I moved it down to only 100 innings needed, thinking that I would at least save some money if he had a major injury or something. He declined. Then I moved the option to $6,000,000 for 150 innings pitched. He declined. At this point he was close to breaking off talks so I just gave him what wanted.

I would think that getting a player option and a no trade clause would be enough to get a guy to take some of his salary as a bonus. Especially if the bonus is for only 100 innings. Mabye I should have made a smaller bonus amount, or mabye this guy was just being an ass.

William4192 · 06-15-2006, 04:48 PM

It seems you were offering 1/3 of the contract as a bonus, that seems a little high to me. Most major league contracts are for a base salary. If he was injury prone or coming off a bad year, I can see the large bonus, but there was not enough of a reward. I could see if he was offering 15M for 4 and you countered with 5 years, 12.5 base with 8M in bonus, then he has a lot to gain (and you lose some risk). It is a win win for both guy. If he gets hurt, you get a discount. If he is healthly, he gets a reward.

I think this approach would make sense, but I have not tested it.

Perched Raven · 06-15-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linenoise

Aside from that I'd like to see more bonus options (like in FM) and I suspect we shall see more options implemented in the future (after many more important things are addressed first - ie; OOTP 2007 probably).

In the MLB/players bargaining agreement, you are not allowed to give direct performance-based incentives (i.e. "hit 30 HR" or "hit .300". However you can give bonuses for winning awards, all-star appearences, etc.), only based on playing time, so the game's system is in line with the current MLB. The idea is to prevent players from making financial decisions on the field. The NBA allowed performanced based incentives, and it was a disaster- point guards would have incentives to average X amount of points and Y amount of assists, and when they came down the court, the decision to take the shot themselves or pass it off became a financial decision, not a win-the-game decision. The same thing would happen in baseball if you gave pitchers incentives to strike out X amount of hitters, or for hitters to hit Y HRs.

It's possible that this could change in the future, but it's unlikely in MLB, esp considering what it did to the NBA. But since OOTP includes foreign leagues, performance incentives might exist there, so it might be nice to have league-level options to turn performance incentives on or off. Like Cras said though, getting the AI right to respond to such things would have to be devlishly hard.

RobertKak · 06-16-2006, 01:09 AM

This is a great thread, I love hearing these contract stories. And thank you to Perched Raven for that little tid-bit. Interesting.

When I first heard that incentives would be included in OOTP 2006, I imagined offering a contract whereby the player got an extra $50,000 for every homerun he hit past 50, or something like that. However, I'm now glad that Markus and Co. kept the incentives in line with the MLB.

In regards to William1492's hypothetical...I actually tried that exact strategy. I had a 34-year old third baseman with a history of injuries. When healthy, he was the backbone of my order, but the risk was a tough call. When contract time came up, he wanted 4 years- 16 million a year. After a few offers I finally put together a package we both could agree with - 4 years at 12 million dollars a year with a Bonus incentive of 5million dollars if he reached 450 plate appearances..the fourth year being a team option.

For his part, he was able to make an extra million dollars a year over what he was originally asking for by staying reasonably healthy throughout the season, while I got financial protection in case he managed to get himself injured again.

Frankly, the deal could not have worked out better....

The first two seasons the guy played great and earned every cent of his 17 million dollars. A quarter way into that third year, however, he had back problems and missed a huge chunk of the season- failing to reach the required number of plate appearances. I paid him his 12 million and was then able to decline his fourth-year option due to his declining talent.

64million versus 46million...boy, is it nice to have incentives in this version.

KurtBevacqua · 06-16-2006, 02:58 AM

In the original version of the game it seemed players were accepting bonuses as regular pay. But in the patch the bonuses almost seem useless.

Linenoise · 06-16-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perched Raven

In the MLB/players bargaining agreement, you are not allowed to give direct performance-based incentives (i.e. "hit 30 HR" or "hit .300". However you can give bonuses for winning awards, all-star appearences, etc.), only based on playing time, so the game's system is in line with the current MLB. The idea is to prevent players from making financial decisions on the field. The NBA allowed performanced based incentives, and it was a disaster- point guards would have incentives to average X amount of points and Y amount of assists, and when they came down the court, the decision to take the shot themselves or pass it off became a financial decision, not a win-the-game decision. The same thing would happen in baseball if you gave pitchers incentives to strike out X amount of hitters, or for hitters to hit Y HRs.

Ah! This I did not know. Thanks for the information. I suppose this makes sense, especially in the case of the NBA where players have constant control over their performances.

Jetzons · 06-16-2006, 02:39 PM

Didn't know that either. Good point.

RobertKak · 06-20-2006, 01:44 PM

Bump...i like this thread and the stories are interesting.
Any more?
Likewise...to initiate other related discussion...what other 'incentives' would folks like to see in the game (keeping in mind what Perched Raven said)...I would like to see bonuses for All-Star Game appearences as well.

JTWood · 06-20-2006, 01:55 PM

I don't know how "creative" this is, but I thought I'd share. I was doing my first practice year in commish mode. I had simmed much of it, stopping to play a couple of games to get the feel for gameplay. I let the year lap over, as I wanted to give free agency a go. I took a piss-poor team that had a lot of free money, and I hit the market.

The first guy I went looking for was a starting pitcher, as the team was sorely lacking in quality arms. I found a young lefty with a low greed attribute and a high loyalty and work ethic. He was wanting about $3M/year less than any other player around his quality level, so I set about signing him to the team.

Because the team was so flush with cash and youth, I did something that you don't see much of in real life: I offered him a front-loaded contract with the goal of having free funds when the team's youth came to fruition. The deal was a 4-year, $30M+ deal (I don't remember the exact amount). I structured it so that he made over $9M the first year but just barely over $6M by the last year. He accepted immediately.

I was pretty happy to be able to do something like that, but then again, I'm an accountant. Maybe that stuff doesn't make you guys as happy as it makes me.

RobertKak · 06-20-2006, 02:21 PM

Nice story JT and some sound financial advise to boot.

Since my brilliant negotiating with that aged 3B I have made some serious financial blunders....

Closing in on a World Championship with only a few missing pieces, I spent the 2010 offseason loading up on free agent talent. I accomplished this well; in part, because I was able to backload the HELL out of two big contracts so I could spend even more that year on some role-players as well (A two-million dollar utility infielder, etc.)
The plan worked okay for two seasons...although I did not win the Series, I made it to Game 7 in my first season with my assembled team and won over 100 games the next season. The next season one of the stars whose contract I backloaded, LF Jack O'donnell, got badly hurt just as the meat of his contract came due. The second player, C Arturo Gerre, simply forgot how to play baseball. With their big salaries overhead, I could not afford to resign my young stars as they slowly flew off to Free Agency. Crippled my team for some time. Heres what I paid for with these two guys during the last three years of their contracts....

Jack O'Donnell
2013 - 21,000,000 DNP
2014 - 23,000,000 .230 5HR 26RBI played in 20 games, then hurt
2015 - 23,500,000 .243 14HR 76RBI

Arturo Gerre
2013 -17,000,000 .261 8HR 63RBI
2014 -17,000,000 .189 3!!!HR 47RBI
2015 -19,000,000 Sent to Minors

06-11-2006, 09:20 PM	#1
DHS23 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Modesto, CA Posts: 506	Creative Contracts Has anyone actually had something like this work for them in dealing with certain players? It seems as if the bonuses and options would be great for an injury prone player. Does the player AI recognize this and accept lower guaranteed offers with a higher incentive? Also, is it possible to have more than just one bonus on a contract?

06-11-2006, 10:42 PM	#2
William4192 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,625	another great question, i'd like some feedback on also __________________ What is this about Rhode Island? It is neither Road or Island. Come check out the PBA. http://www.pioneerbaseballassociation.com Or email at pbacommish@pioneerbaseballassociation.com

06-14-2006, 12:52 AM	#4
Giants44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 2,408	I only have one example so this is hardly a scientific study. at the end of 2006 Barry Bonds contract had expired and I was not interested in giving him 21M for 3 years as he was asking for. It is worth noting that since the game doesn't recognize the steroid controversy (this is NOT a complaint about the game, just information) and all that I have chose within the game to pretend it doesn't exist and my primary reason for not wanting to commit 3 x 20 is Barry was injury prone and only a shadow of his former self - he hit .279 with 29 homers and 80 - hardly a 60M man. so I tried giving him a one year deal at 15M with a team option for year 2 and a MVP bonus of 10M. I figured if he returned to MVP form I would happily pay him 25M if not 15M is not bad. He didn't go for, even though the potential payout was higher per year then he was asking. I actually took the option off and tried a mutual option and still he was not interested. In the end - he signed with the Yankees - 3 years - 13M per and was AL player of the month in April hitting .352 with 9 homers. He should have stayed in SF he would have made more money. I think it is important to say that I don't post this as a complaint on the AI - the Bonds issue even without steroids is a complicated one and I have not problems at all with the way the game handled this. I do think the way it played out is the of reality. __________________ "In a text sim - Immersion is everything" -Me "Judge a man not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character" -Martin Luther King "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Einstein "The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." -Muhammad Ali "Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything." -Toby Harrah Last edited by Giants44; 06-14-2006 at 12:53 AM.

06-14-2006, 12:54 AM	#5
Cras Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: LEO Posts: 3,789	I would hazard a guess that getting the AI to respond well to such creative deals has to be one of the hardest aspects to get right. __________________ The Chicago White Sox 1906, 1917, 2005 World Series Champions 1900, 1901, 1906, 1917, 1919, 1959, 2005 American League Champions 2000, 2005, 2008 American League Central Division Champions 1983, 1993 American League West Division Champions OOTP \| Orbiter \| SSMS \| FSX \| LoL \| MLP:FIM!

06-15-2006, 03:27 PM	#7
William4192 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,625	It is great to hear these stories. __________________ What is this about Rhode Island? It is neither Road or Island. Come check out the PBA. http://www.pioneerbaseballassociation.com Or email at pbacommish@pioneerbaseballassociation.com

06-13-2006, 10:45 PM	#3
DHS23 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Modesto, CA Posts: 506	bump

06-15-2006, 04:01 PM	#8
Linenoise Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 121	I tried to circumvent the "we will not trade for overpaid vertern players" anti-cheat protocol by attempting to sign a player to a 4 year contract that essentially front loaded the contract. Something like 15m for the 1st 3 years and 10m for the last year. The team Owner called me out on it however as he likes the money to be spread out fairly evenly. I was happy to see that Marcus & Co. were one step ahead of me in this regard. At first I was upset I could not do this but after a brief complaint to a friend of mine it was made clear to me how easily exploitable this is. However a part of me still contends that being able to trade good middle aged players with cheap 1-2 yr contracts is not all bad for either party. Aside from that I'd like to see more bonus options (like in FM) and I suspect we shall see more options implemented in the future (after many more important things are addressed first - ie; OOTP 2007 probably).

06-15-2006, 04:05 PM	#9
Hotwheelz All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 1,620	There was a 20 year old 3B who was nearly ready for the big leagues and had a very high upside in the free agent pool. Thinking he would take a minor league deal I tried that. Nope. He wanted a 1 year contract at 1.7 mil. So I offer him a 3 year contract worth 350K per season with a bonus of 1.5 mil if he reaches 500 AB. There is a no trade clause and a mutual option for the third season. I figure this is a low risk deal if he doesnt pan out and if he does.... 1.8 mil a season for this kind of talent is not bad. __________________ "It's a great day for a ballgame; let's play two." Ernie Banks

06-15-2006, 04:13 PM	#10
molarmite Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 4,929	Well I don't think they'd put it in if it didn't do anything. __________________ From the wise mind of Davey Eckstein "Now all you need is a signature. A quote or initial, perhaps." [

06-15-2006, 04:44 PM	#11
trapper Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 114	I've had trouble getting this to make sense as well. In my firsts (and only) franchise I had an ace pitcher who was becoming a UFA at age 28. He was one of the top starting pitchers in the league and the all time strikeout leader in my 10 year old league. He wanted $15,000,000 for 4 years. I offered him 4 years with a player option, and a no trade clause. First I made each year worth $10,000,000 with a $5,000,000 bonus for 150 innings pitched. He declined. I'm thinking since the guy has no injury history and 150 innings is not a lot for an ace, he should accept. So then I moved it down to only 100 innings needed, thinking that I would at least save some money if he had a major injury or something. He declined. Then I moved the option to $6,000,000 for 150 innings pitched. He declined. At this point he was close to breaking off talks so I just gave him what wanted. I would think that getting a player option and a no trade clause would be enough to get a guy to take some of his salary as a bonus. Especially if the bonus is for only 100 innings. Mabye I should have made a smaller bonus amount, or mabye this guy was just being an ass.

06-15-2006, 04:48 PM	#12
William4192 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,625	It seems you were offering 1/3 of the contract as a bonus, that seems a little high to me. Most major league contracts are for a base salary. If he was injury prone or coming off a bad year, I can see the large bonus, but there was not enough of a reward. I could see if he was offering 15M for 4 and you countered with 5 years, 12.5 base with 8M in bonus, then he has a lot to gain (and you lose some risk). It is a win win for both guy. If he gets hurt, you get a discount. If he is healthly, he gets a reward. I think this approach would make sense, but I have not tested it. __________________ What is this about Rhode Island? It is neither Road or Island. Come check out the PBA. http://www.pioneerbaseballassociation.com Or email at pbacommish@pioneerbaseballassociation.com

06-16-2006, 01:09 AM	#14
RobertKak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 108	This is a great thread, I love hearing these contract stories. And thank you to Perched Raven for that little tid-bit. Interesting. When I first heard that incentives would be included in OOTP 2006, I imagined offering a contract whereby the player got an extra $50,000 for every homerun he hit past 50, or something like that. However, I'm now glad that Markus and Co. kept the incentives in line with the MLB. In regards to William1492's hypothetical...I actually tried that exact strategy. I had a 34-year old third baseman with a history of injuries. When healthy, he was the backbone of my order, but the risk was a tough call. When contract time came up, he wanted 4 years- 16 million a year. After a few offers I finally put together a package we both could agree with - 4 years at 12 million dollars a year with a Bonus incentive of 5million dollars if he reached 450 plate appearances..the fourth year being a team option. For his part, he was able to make an extra million dollars a year over what he was originally asking for by staying reasonably healthy throughout the season, while I got financial protection in case he managed to get himself injured again. Frankly, the deal could not have worked out better.... The first two seasons the guy played great and earned every cent of his 17 million dollars. A quarter way into that third year, however, he had back problems and missed a huge chunk of the season- failing to reach the required number of plate appearances. I paid him his 12 million and was then able to decline his fourth-year option due to his declining talent. 64million versus 46million...boy, is it nice to have incentives in this version. __________________ NMWL ______________________________ "The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and what could be again." -Terrance Mann (James Earl Jones) Field of Dreams 1989

06-16-2006, 02:58 AM	#15
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	In the original version of the game it seemed players were accepting bonuses as regular pay. But in the patch the bonuses almost seem useless. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

06-16-2006, 02:39 PM	#17
Jetzons Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a Chair Playing OOTP Posts: 39	Didn't know that either. Good point. __________________ "You better cut the pizza in four pieces because I'm not hungry enough to eat six." Yogi Berra

06-20-2006, 01:44 PM	#18
RobertKak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 108	Bump...i like this thread and the stories are interesting. Any more? Likewise...to initiate other related discussion...what other 'incentives' would folks like to see in the game (keeping in mind what Perched Raven said)...I would like to see bonuses for All-Star Game appearences as well. __________________ NMWL ______________________________ "The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and what could be again." -Terrance Mann (James Earl Jones) Field of Dreams 1989

06-20-2006, 01:55 PM	#19
JTWood Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 164	I don't know how "creative" this is, but I thought I'd share. I was doing my first practice year in commish mode. I had simmed much of it, stopping to play a couple of games to get the feel for gameplay. I let the year lap over, as I wanted to give free agency a go. I took a piss-poor team that had a lot of free money, and I hit the market. The first guy I went looking for was a starting pitcher, as the team was sorely lacking in quality arms. I found a young lefty with a low greed attribute and a high loyalty and work ethic. He was wanting about $3M/year less than any other player around his quality level, so I set about signing him to the team. Because the team was so flush with cash and youth, I did something that you don't see much of in real life: I offered him a front-loaded contract with the goal of having free funds when the team's youth came to fruition. The deal was a 4-year, $30M+ deal (I don't remember the exact amount). I structured it so that he made over $9M the first year but just barely over $6M by the last year. He accepted immediately. I was pretty happy to be able to do something like that, but then again, I'm an accountant. Maybe that stuff doesn't make you guys as happy as it makes me.

06-20-2006, 02:21 PM	#20
RobertKak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 108	Nice story JT and some sound financial advise to boot. Since my brilliant negotiating with that aged 3B I have made some serious financial blunders.... Closing in on a World Championship with only a few missing pieces, I spent the 2010 offseason loading up on free agent talent. I accomplished this well; in part, because I was able to backload the HELL out of two big contracts so I could spend even more that year on some role-players as well (A two-million dollar utility infielder, etc.) The plan worked okay for two seasons...although I did not win the Series, I made it to Game 7 in my first season with my assembled team and won over 100 games the next season. The next season one of the stars whose contract I backloaded, LF Jack O'donnell, got badly hurt just as the meat of his contract came due. The second player, C Arturo Gerre, simply forgot how to play baseball. With their big salaries overhead, I could not afford to resign my young stars as they slowly flew off to Free Agency. Crippled my team for some time. Heres what I paid for with these two guys during the last three years of their contracts.... Jack O'Donnell 2013 - 21,000,000 DNP 2014 - 23,000,000 .230 5HR 26RBI played in 20 games, then hurt 2015 - 23,500,000 .243 14HR 76RBI Arturo Gerre 2013 -17,000,000 .261 8HR 63RBI 2014 -17,000,000 .189 3!!!HR 47RBI 2015 -19,000,000 Sent to Minors __________________ NMWL ______________________________ "The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and what could be again." -Terrance Mann (James Earl Jones) Field of Dreams 1989