"Rewriting OOTP"

mbd · 04-20-2006, 01:25 AM

I've read a few threads that say Markus has "totally rewritten" OOTP or something like that. Some assumed results of this are:

1) Every little bug in OOTP6 is now gone, cuz all the code is new
2) The game is faster and can now sim a season in under an hour

As part of this it also seems like I'm seeing that some great features in OOTP6 (like parts of financials, personalities, certain parts of rating systems etc.) all seem like they aren't in the new version. But a lot of this is basically 2nd hand so I'm not totally sure what to believe.

I'm not a programmer but I'm confused. I understand how you might want to re-write parts of the game to make it faster. But I'm worried we threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Is this really a "complete re-write"? If so, why? Is it some legal issue where Markus gets to keep the old OOTP code but only if he doesn't use it in his new work for SI?

I would rather still have some bugs from OOTP6 but also have it's strengths than have a total do-over.

disposableheros · 04-20-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

I've read a few threads that say Markus has "totally rewritten" OOTP or something like that. Some assumed results of this are:

1) Every little bug in OOTP6 is now gone, cuz all the code is new
2) The game is faster and can now sim a season in under an hour

1) now they are OOTP2006 bugs

2) that's what we've been told

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

As part of this it also seems like I'm seeing that some great features in OOTP6 (like parts of financials, personalities, certain parts of rating systems etc.) all seem like they aren't in the new version. But a lot of this is basically 2nd hand so I'm not totally sure what to believe.

everything official comes from http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/main...43a884c34586a6

you can find features lists there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

I'm not a programmer but I'm confused. I understand how you might want to re-write parts of the game to make it faster. But I'm worried we threw out the baby with the bathwater.

unfounded worry. worry when the game comes out and its not right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

Is this really a "complete re-write"? If so, why? Is it some legal issue where Markus gets to keep the old OOTP code but only if he doesn't use it in his new work for SI?

yes, its a complete rewrite, from what we've been told. the explaination has been, "old code has turned into a nightmare from 6 versions of code and bug fixes".

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

I would rather still have some bugs from OOTP6 but also have it's strengths than have a total do-over.

kinda hard to say that when you havent seen the new version

Markus Heinsohn · 04-20-2006, 07:30 AM

It is a complete rewrite... from the OOTP 6.5 code I maybe copied&pasted 100 lines of code, max.

The reason is simple: The new data structure and the new interface doesn't allow using old code without modification. Of course, some formulas are still the same, but all the variable names in the code are now completely different.

bababui · 04-20-2006, 07:43 AM

Keep up the good work Markus. You are a visionary in this business and your product is sweeping. Thanks for all the hard work you are putting into the product. Cheers!

RonCo · 04-20-2006, 07:50 AM

It's not the code that matters. It's the logic.

battists · 04-20-2006, 08:09 AM

I do think it's important to consider, however, that OOTP 6.5 was a very "mature" product. Basically, for the past however many releases, all Markus had to focus on was tweaking small things here or there. By rewriting the entire program this time around, a lot more time has to be spend on "the basics."

I guess my point is, my assumption has always been that OOTPB 2006 will probably, almost by necessity, be the least polished of the new OOTPB series. For example, for OOTPB 2007, Markus will be able to focus almost exclusively on adding new features and improving the existing ones. That's not the case for this year's edition.

Not trying to scare y'all, it's just my thought on how the development process probably works in cases like this.

Malleus Dei · 04-20-2006, 08:14 AM

Because it's a total rewrite, it may also be the buggiest version since the white CD.

But let's hope not.

battists · 04-20-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Because it's a total rewrite, it may also be the buggiest version since the white CD.

But let's hope not.

Not to mention, more customizability = more different ways to play the game = more potential bugs.

LeiterFanatic · 04-20-2006, 08:17 AM

Well, I thought that Markus was using the proven codebase from SI to write some of the game's routines. That alone should help keep it from being a "brand new" buggy rewrite. Perhaps I read that wrong.

battists · 04-20-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

Well, I thought that Markus was using the proven codebase from SI to write some of the game's routines. That alone should help keep it from being a "brand new" buggy rewrite. Perhaps I read that wrong.

My understanding is that the SI code base has only been used for interface/GUI stuff. The "look and feel" as it were.

Marc Duffy · 04-20-2006, 09:06 AM

Yep, thats right (edited - ouch!!)

The core underbelly of the game (ie the stuff that gets the game up and running etc) is from SI

The game code is 100% from Markus.

Joshv02 · 04-20-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Yep, thats write

I'm embarrased for this pun

Marc Duffy · 04-20-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshv02

I'm embarrased for this pun

If only

Mistake corrected

jm47048 · 04-20-2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Yep, thats right (edited - ouch!!)

The core underbelly of the game (ie the stuff that gets the game up and running etc) is from SI

The game code is 100% from Markus.

Lots of game developers do this. Look at PopCap. They released their engine to the general public so that indy game developers can get started. So I am sure that it is not uncommon that companies like SI and OOTP set up shop and share code. I am sure that the game will have bugs, but I don't think it will be the kinds of bugs we saw before. They won't be deep in the code since SI's engine has been tested in other games. This leaves Markus with less areas to search for bugs, given that most will be in his own code, rather then the whole game. Does this make sense? So this means that while the testers are testing, they will find them and fix them fast.

Zitofan75 · 04-20-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

I've read a few threads that say Markus has "totally rewritten" OOTP or something like that. Some assumed results of this are:

1) Every little bug in OOTP6 is now gone, cuz all the code is new
2) The game is faster and can now sim a season in under an hour

As part of this it also seems like I'm seeing that some great features in OOTP6 (like parts of financials, personalities, certain parts of rating systems etc.) all seem like they aren't in the new version. But a lot of this is basically 2nd hand so I'm not totally sure what to believe.

I'm not a programmer but I'm confused. I understand how you might want to re-write parts of the game to make it faster. But I'm worried we threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Is this really a "complete re-write"? If so, why? Is it some legal issue where Markus gets to keep the old OOTP code but only if he doesn't use it in his new work for SI?

I would rather still have some bugs from OOTP6 but also have it's strengths than have a total do-over.

Let's not start yelling "the sky is falling" until it is or we have solid evidence that it will soon. We don't have anything like that here. You're welcome to keep playing the old game but it seems kind of shortsighted to be assuming the new game will be worse when you admit you're not basing your comments on personal knowledge.

As for the 2nd hand information, why waste your time? Markus has written 7 blogs, Marc has written 2-3, and the beta team members have written a combined 4-5 or so. Most of your questions, fears, or worries can simply be answered by reading them instead of repeating someone else's hyperventilation. They explain what's in, what's out, what's new, what returned, what got dropped, and why it's a new game. Check them out.

mbd · 04-20-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

As for the 2nd hand information, why waste your time?

Sorry. I'm fairly new to these forums although I've been lurking for a while. So I haven't bumped into all the official blogs yet. The threads with the most recent responses are the ones I read. I'll keep looking for the blogs.

Marc Duffy · 04-20-2006, 01:09 PM

mbd : check out http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/blogs.php

Zitofan75 · 04-20-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd

Sorry. I'm fairly new to these forums although I've been lurking for a while. So I haven't bumped into all the official blogs yet. The threads with the most recent responses are the ones I read. I'll keep looking for the blogs.

No problem, I guessed you were. Sometimes the threads with the most posts are also the poorest sources of info around here!

Anyhow, go to the top of the threads you'll see one listing Markus' blogs 1-6 ... you have to scroll down for #7. A new Beta blog was done this morning and should be easy to find and you can always search for Tiger Fan's two blogs as well.

Welcome aboard! Sorry if I was gruff earlier ...

Zitofan75 · 04-20-2006, 01:12 PM

Dola, Marc beat me to it! You'll get used to them jumping in with good information BTW ...

Malleus Dei · 04-20-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Not to mention, more customizability = more different ways to play the game = more potential bugs.

This is true. Let's keep our fingers crossed that Mauboy and his assistants can find all of the signifcant bugs before release via testing.

I really don't expect that to be the case, but hope does spring eternal.

04-20-2006, 01:25 AM	#1
mbd Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 29	"Rewriting OOTP" I've read a few threads that say Markus has "totally rewritten" OOTP or something like that. Some assumed results of this are: 1) Every little bug in OOTP6 is now gone, cuz all the code is new 2) The game is faster and can now sim a season in under an hour As part of this it also seems like I'm seeing that some great features in OOTP6 (like parts of financials, personalities, certain parts of rating systems etc.) all seem like they aren't in the new version. But a lot of this is basically 2nd hand so I'm not totally sure what to believe. I'm not a programmer but I'm confused. I understand how you might want to re-write parts of the game to make it faster. But I'm worried we threw out the baby with the bathwater. Is this really a "complete re-write"? If so, why? Is it some legal issue where Markus gets to keep the old OOTP code but only if he doesn't use it in his new work for SI? I would rather still have some bugs from OOTP6 but also have it's strengths than have a total do-over.

04-20-2006, 09:06 AM	#11
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	Yep, thats right (edited - ouch!!) The core underbelly of the game (ie the stuff that gets the game up and running etc) is from SI The game code is 100% from Markus. Last edited by Marc Duffy; 04-20-2006 at 09:12 AM.

04-20-2006, 07:30 AM	#3
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	It is a complete rewrite... from the OOTP 6.5 code I maybe copied&pasted 100 lines of code, max. The reason is simple: The new data structure and the new interface doesn't allow using old code without modification. Of course, some formulas are still the same, but all the variable names in the code are now completely different.

04-20-2006, 07:43 AM	#4
bababui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,147 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Keep up the good work Markus. You are a visionary in this business and your product is sweeping. Thanks for all the hard work you are putting into the product. Cheers!

04-20-2006, 07:50 AM	#5
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 10,502	It's not the code that matters. It's the logic.

04-20-2006, 08:09 AM	#6
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	I do think it's important to consider, however, that OOTP 6.5 was a very "mature" product. Basically, for the past however many releases, all Markus had to focus on was tweaking small things here or there. By rewriting the entire program this time around, a lot more time has to be spend on "the basics." I guess my point is, my assumption has always been that OOTPB 2006 will probably, almost by necessity, be the least polished of the new OOTPB series. For example, for OOTPB 2007, Markus will be able to focus almost exclusively on adding new features and improving the existing ones. That's not the case for this year's edition. Not trying to scare y'all, it's just my thought on how the development process probably works in cases like this.

04-20-2006, 08:17 AM	#9
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,359	Well, I thought that Markus was using the proven codebase from SI to write some of the game's routines. That alone should help keep it from being a "brand new" buggy rewrite. Perhaps I read that wrong.

04-20-2006, 01:09 PM	#17
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	mbd : check out http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/blogs.php

04-20-2006, 01:12 PM	#19
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	Dola, Marc beat me to it! You'll get used to them jumping in with good information BTW ...