Nfl Mvp - Page 6

streetballer67 · 01-07-2006, 03:46 PM

Looking back I can see that the Pats may have struggled to make it but in the poor AFC East I still think they make it. As for the Giants, the Manning to Burress combo was good for a few wins. While I think without him the 'Skins win the division I still think the Giants grab a wildcard.

What! · 01-07-2006, 03:51 PM

Going by what the team would of done I still vote for Manning. Team had a great record and without out Manning do they make the playoffs? I dont know Jacksonville went 12-4 and the AFC wildcard is not an easy one to capture so I put him ahead of Palmer.

Goody · 01-08-2006, 04:56 PM

Stats, stats, stats....this is football guys.

I'm guessing the majority of votes for SA are people who actually saw a Seahawks game this year...while the majority of non-votes didn't.

mlyons · 01-08-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9lives

Stats, stats, stats....this is football guys.

I'm guessing the majority of votes for SA are people who actually saw a Seahawks game this year...while the majority of non-votes didn't.

I've seen a couple of Seahawks games this season -- Alexander looked great. I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but Barber had a truly dominating season. Seriously, he had 2390 yards from scrimmage; that's the second highest total in NFL history.

Out of curiosity, how many Giants games did you take in this season?

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9lives

Stats, stats, stats....this is football guys.

Right. So, make a case for Alexander as MVP without using statistics.

Quote:

I'm guessing the majority of votes for SA are people who actually saw a Seahawks game this year...while the majority of non-votes didn't.

You are incredibly ignorant.

I have the NFL package on DirecTV and I watch several games a week.. including the Seahawks. Just because you're a biased homer who hasn't given a solid argument for your claim doesn't give you any right to start making ignorant assumptions.

Dougiestyle · 01-08-2006, 06:10 PM

Just a few more things that don't help the debate, but are interesting. (My vote went to Shaun Alexander, and would 7 days a week, but I think it's SOOOO close)

The average Shaun Alexander TD was approx. 9 yards.
The average Tiki Barber TB was approx. 20 yards

--Could this mean that if Barber was given the opportunities within the 5 yard line, his TDs would have been closer to SA's? Probably.

Out of SA's 28 rushing TDs, 17 were run in from the 5yd line or closer.
Out of TB's 9 rushing TDs, 3 were run in from the 5yd line or closer.

--See above.

Shaun Alexander scored in 14 of his teams 16 games.
Tiki Barber scored in 8 of his teams 16 games.

--I think this is a pretty telling statistic.

I think the case for each player is strong. Overall, NYG had more talent on offense, but Seattle had the better QB, which to me, means that Tiki was facing a tougher assignment as a runner.

However, some of you think TDs are overvalued, and I think those of you who are, are undervaluing not TDs, but the difference between 28 and 11 TDs. If Tiki had say ... 20-23 TDs, he'd be my vote in a second. MAYBE even 18. However, a gap of 17 TDs is A LOT, and while TDs may be overrated in general thinking, a gap of 17 is huge.

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougiestyle

However, some of you think TDs are overvalued, and I think those of you who are, are undervaluing not TDs, but the difference between 28 and 11 TDs. If Tiki had say ... 20-23 TDs, he'd be my vote in a second. MAYBE even 18. However, a gap of 17 TDs is A LOT, and while TDs may be overrated in general thinking, a gap of 17 is huge.

...and those who don't think that Tiki was more valuable than Alexander are undervaluing 450 yards recieving out of the backfield.

Khan · 01-08-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

...and those who don't think that Tiki was more valuable than Alexander are undervaluing 450 yards recieving out of the backfield.

The yards are nice ,but that's only 28 extra yards a game. I'll take the extra score a game, thank you very much.

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan

The yards are nice ,but that's only 28 extra yards a game. I'll take the extra score a game, thank you very much.

And those touchdowns are independent of yards gained?

Dougiestyle · 01-08-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

...and those who don't think that Tiki was more valuable than Alexander are undervaluing 450 yards recieving out of the backfield.

So you're saying there is no absolute way that Alexander is more valuable than Barber this season?

For the time I've been reading these forums, I've always respected and looked forward to your posts. However, if you say that Barber is clear cut, no other person should be in the debate, MVP, that will go away.

Khan · 01-08-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

And those touchdowns are independent of yards gained?

Sigh, i'm getting tired of this argument..

You're obviously a yards guy and that's fine, I like yards too and would consider myself as someone who looks for a balance between yards and scoring.

Again I'm not saying Tiki isn't great , he clearly is (although not so much today

)

Anyways, I've got to believe if you asked any coach in the league at the end of the season if you're primary RB could have either 450 yds more receiving or 17 more TD's they'd take the TD's without hesitation.

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougiestyle

So you're saying there is no absolute way that Alexander is more valuable than Barber this season?

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that people are overrating the touchdowns, and on top of that, completely ignoring receiving contributions (in which Tiki was worlds better than any other HB this season).

Alexander was a better runner, no doubt. However, take everything into consideration, including the fact that Seattle had the easiest schedule in football this year (by DVOA) while the Giants were middle of the pack in that regard (15th hardest) and to me, the answer is clear who was more valuable to their respective team.

I haven't heard or read a convincing defense of Alexander over Barber yet when touchdowns (on an individual basis) are put in their proper perspective. This touchdowns debate is especially frustrating since it's a conventional wisdom thing. Convincing most people conventional wisdom isn't exactly true is a near impossible thing to do.

So, while I believe that your post on the matter was well thought out... I don't agree with it at all. If anything, I think you put things in a perspective that people who believe that touchdowns are as important as most people do can understand why they're really not.

With that, I'll just bow out of this discussion and agree to disagree unless there's something else I need to clarify?

Luis_Rivera · 01-08-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan

You're obviously a yards guy and that's fine

I wouldn't consider myself a yards guy... I'm a value guy.

I like the metrics at www.footballoutsiders.com because they take everything into consideration, putting every play into context to measure a players' total value... and then adjust it for the strength of the defense.

cooper_gd · 01-09-2006, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooper_gd

.

The axe is getting dull.

.

bagsangels · 01-09-2006, 05:45 AM

palmer is quickly becoming one of my fav. players.

Jason Moyer · 01-09-2006, 07:43 AM

I voted for Shawan Alexandrur cuz he's a good RBI man!@#! He came thru with RISP better than any1.

Sublimity · 01-09-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I voted for Shawan Alexandrur cuz he's a good RBI man!@#! He came thru with RISP better than any1.

So he was clutch?

Jason Moyer · 01-09-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimity

So he was clutch?

There is no1 I'd want with teh ball inside the 5 more tan Alixandar. Cept mebbe Bettus who shud be mvp 2. Or Emmet Smiht but he retired I tink.

Sublimity · 01-09-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

There is no1 I'd want with teh ball inside the 5 more tan Alixandar. Cept mebbe Bettus who shud be mvp 2. Or Emmet Smiht but he retired I tink.

d00d... what if Jeter played football?? He'd get like ten blilion DTs!! I mean TDS Lol!

Dougiestyle · 01-09-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimity

d00d... what if Jeter played football?? He'd get like ten blilion DTs!! I mean TDS Lol!

wtfomgbbq, Jeetr don't have trhe body to plkay in the NFL! he's so weakl that theyd break his legz in an instant! he'd gey owned , espocially against da bearz~!

View Poll Results: Who should win the NFL MVP
Shaun Alexander	43	46.74%
Tiki Barber	10	10.87%
Tom Brady	10	10.87%
Peyton Manning	9	9.78%
Carson Palmer	17	18.48%
Other, specify	3	3.26%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

01-07-2006, 03:46 PM	#101
streetballer67 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,004	Looking back I can see that the Pats may have struggled to make it but in the poor AFC East I still think they make it. As for the Giants, the Manning to Burress combo was good for a few wins. While I think without him the 'Skins win the division I still think the Giants grab a wildcard. __________________ Visit Here!!!

01-09-2006, 07:43 AM	#116
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,105	I voted for Shawan Alexandrur cuz he's a good RBI man!@#! He came thru with RISP better than any1. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

01-07-2006, 03:51 PM	#102
What! Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 338	Going by what the team would of done I still vote for Manning. Team had a great record and without out Manning do they make the playoffs? I dont know Jacksonville went 12-4 and the AFC wildcard is not an easy one to capture so I put him ahead of Palmer.

01-08-2006, 04:56 PM	#103
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	Stats, stats, stats....this is football guys. I'm guessing the majority of votes for SA are people who actually saw a Seahawks game this year...while the majority of non-votes didn't.

01-08-2006, 06:10 PM	#106
Dougiestyle All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 922	Just a few more things that don't help the debate, but are interesting. (My vote went to Shaun Alexander, and would 7 days a week, but I think it's SOOOO close) The average Shaun Alexander TD was approx. 9 yards. The average Tiki Barber TB was approx. 20 yards --Could this mean that if Barber was given the opportunities within the 5 yard line, his TDs would have been closer to SA's? Probably. Out of SA's 28 rushing TDs, 17 were run in from the 5yd line or closer. Out of TB's 9 rushing TDs, 3 were run in from the 5yd line or closer. --See above. Shaun Alexander scored in 14 of his teams 16 games. Tiki Barber scored in 8 of his teams 16 games. --I think this is a pretty telling statistic. I think the case for each player is strong. Overall, NYG had more talent on offense, but Seattle had the better QB, which to me, means that Tiki was facing a tougher assignment as a runner. However, some of you think TDs are overvalued, and I think those of you who are, are undervaluing not TDs, but the difference between 28 and 11 TDs. If Tiki had say ... 20-23 TDs, he'd be my vote in a second. MAYBE even 18. However, a gap of 17 TDs is A LOT, and while TDs may be overrated in general thinking, a gap of 17 is huge.

01-09-2006, 05:45 AM	#115
bagsangels Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 332	palmer is quickly becoming one of my fav. players.