Pitcher Roles

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 02:30 PM

How wil Pitching roles be handled? I hate the way the game curently does it. Endurance sems to be the big factor. Many times a club will bring up a very talented prospect and stick him in the Pen to start, just to see how he does. It sn'tbasedon endurance.

Markus Heinsohn · 11-29-2005, 02:42 PM

So, how should it work in your opinion?

Mike Donlin · 11-29-2005, 02:56 PM

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=105771

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 02:57 PM

Well, Perhaps Endurance should be a hidden rating...after that I think Teams should be looking at Pitching ratings. In other words, no SP, MR or CL. Every pitcher is just that...a pitcher. Itwould than be up to each team to figure out how to use the player. I just don't think releif pitchers are in thebulpen because of endurance issues, usally it's because they don't have what it takes to be a starter or are a borderline case. You could make the argumet that closers are very good, but often they are lacking in some areas, or they'd be a starter. They might have great stuff and high volocity pitches, but por control and movement. It should be up to the GMand scoting staff and coaching personnel to decide what players go where, based on the ratings.

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 03:04 PM

To Delve in even further...I know you can change pitcher roles, but the AI doesn't do it (or at least correctly), so I feel this sstem is better. Now when players sign contracts and you tel them what role you want them to be , it could be a factor. Eg. Players promised to be starting who now find themselves in the Pen could get upset and not resignordemand a tradeand become a problem in the clubhouse. I just don't like the pre-determined roles.

andymac · 11-29-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

To Delve in even further...I know you can change pitcher roles, but the AI doesn't do it (or at least correctly), so I feel this sstem is better. Now when players sign contracts and you tel them what role you want them to be , it could be a factor. Eg. Players promised to be starting who now find themselves in the Pen could get upset and not resignordemand a tradeand become a problem in the clubhouse. I just don't like the pre-determined roles.

I agree with not liking the pre-determined roles (or assigning of roles in general) and would love to see "player roll" become a factor in free agent signing. i.e., you would have to tell a pitcher you are going to sign how you plan to use him. That would then factor in to how much money he would want (he would need more to pitch in a role that isn't his preference), or whether he wants to consider the offer at all.

The roll choices would be something like:
1. Starting roll (basically like guaranteeing the player a spot in the rotation
2. Compete for a rotation spot. (you aren't guaranteeing the player a spot in the rotation, but they are going to expect to be given a chance at it in spring training. Most likely only go in hand with one-year offers as guys won't want to be unsure of their roll going into a multi-year contract).
3. Relief roll (self explanatory)
4. Closer roll (also self explanatory)
5. Compete for roster spot (means you are going to give the player a chance to make the roster in spring training).

If a player is used in a less favorable spot than you told them they would be, they could possible become unhappy (either wanting a trade or becoming less likely to re-sign).

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

I agree with not liking the pre-determined roles (or assigning of roles in general) and would love to see "player roll" become a factor in free agent signing. i.e., you would have to tell a pitcher you are going to sign how you plan to use him. That would then factor in to how much money he would want (he would need more to pitch in a role that isn't his preference), or whether he wants to consider the offer at all.

The roll choices would be something like:
1. Starting roll (basically like guaranteeing the player a spot in the rotation
2. Compete for a rotation spot. (you aren't guaranteeing the player a spot in the rotation, but they are going to expect to be given a chance at it in spring training. Most likely only go in hand with one-year offers as guys won't want to be unsure of their roll going into a multi-year contract).
3. Relief roll (self explanatory)
4. Closer roll (also self explanatory)
5. Compete for roster spot (means you are going to give the player a chance to make the roster in spring training).

If a player is used in a less favorable spot than you told them they would be, they could possible become unhappy (either wanting a trade or becoming less likely to re-sign).

This is very similar to how it works in FM and CM, just check it out.

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 03:43 PM

Just to illustrate my point: Right now I'm about to claim a five star MR pitcher with an endurance rating of 7 on a scale of 1-8. Why is he on waivers? Answer: because he is considered a MR by the AI. When I claim him, which I will in a day(waivers were not revoced) I will promptly turn him into a starter. This shouldn't be happening.

Deft · 11-29-2005, 03:53 PM

I don' t think I have the definitive answer but playing ball at several level, I can try and explain what goes into the roles and why I would revamp the ratings.

Starting Pitcher-
Has more than 2 pitches that he can throw in the zone
Has the stamina to stay in the game for more than 5 innings
Has problems recovering from pitching in a short time span (not a requirement but could prevent them from relieving often)

Closer-
Has nerve to not get rattled and face pressure situations
Has one or two outstanding pitches
Often doesn't have 3-4 pitches to get hitters out multiple times
Has quick recovery skills

Middle Relievers-
Has rubber arm that allows them to throw several innings several days in a row
Often doesn't have the skills of the other two roles

So I think the pitchers should have pitches (Fastball, Curveball, etc..) that they have ratings in. I also think Endurace and Recovery should be separated.

If the individual pitch ratings can get rolled up into a general rating that would make it as accessible to the moderate player as it is currently.

andymac · 11-29-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deft

I don' t think I have the definitive answer but playing ball at several level, I can try and explain what goes into the roles and why I would revamp the ratings.

Starting Pitcher-
Has more than 2 pitches that he can throw in the zone
Has the stamina to stay in the game for more than 5 innings
Has problems recovering from pitching in a short time span (not a requirement but could prevent them from relieving often)

Closer-
Has nerve to not get rattled and face pressure situations
Has one or two outstanding pitches
Often doesn't have 3-4 pitches to get hitters out multiple times
Has quick recovery skills

Middle Relievers-
Has rubber arm that allows them to throw several innings several days in a row
Often doesn't have the skills of the other two roles

So I think the pitchers should have pitches (Fastball, Curveball, etc..) that they have ratings in. I also think Endurace and Recovery should be separated.

If the individual pitch ratings can get rolled up into a general rating that would make it as accessible to the moderate player as it is currently.

I think you need to add to this injury proneness. Pitchers that get injured a lot as youngsters tend to get turned into relievers so as to put less of a workload on their arms (thus limiting injury chance).

andymac · 11-29-2005, 04:02 PM

Dola,

It seems to me that it would also make sense to make how "prone" a player is to injury a hidden rating. Maybe have some sort of injury history for a player before you even draft them, though, to give hints as to whether they are prone or not.

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Just to illustrate my point: Right now I'm about to claim a five star MR pitcher with an endurance rating of 7 on a scale of 1-8. Why is he on waivers? Answer: because he is considered a MR by the AI. When I claim him, which I will in a day(waivers were not revoced) I will promptly turn him into a starter. This shouldn't be happening.

Well I just signed the guy and changed his role from MR to SP. He is now considered the 6th best prospect in all of the Majors. This is bull****.

andymac · 11-29-2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is bull****.

Well, that is also how I feel about your decision to include that line in your post. Life isn't perfect, man. Chill out.

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 05:32 PM

Sorry...I'm just trying to illustrate a point,I think this is a big flaw that I wan't aware of before.

PSUColonel · 11-29-2005, 05:33 PM

I think it just shows the need to edo this area of OTTP.

andymac · 11-29-2005, 05:35 PM

I understand and agree that this is a part of the game that needs work, but you also need to realize that this is a very difficult part of the game to implement (talking about the waivers problem) and test. You are just going to have to take the good with the bad right now. I guarantee you that the next version will be better in this area, but it still won't be perfect.

Sublimity · 11-29-2005, 05:36 PM

I like the idea of having a recovery time associated at least with relievers.

theasfl · 11-29-2005, 06:04 PM

I personally like the current endurance rating, but perhaps make it possible at spring training to try to turn a MR into an SP by gaining endurance and pitch selection or something of that nature. Im not completely against this, but it seems to drastic.

atlbraves · 11-29-2005, 06:05 PM

OK I think there should be an option of whether to hide or see their endurance ratings to fit what kind of challenge you would want. If you hide your rating, you then have to test out who is fit for each position and then go on from there. If you can see the rating, then the challenge is less harder and you know where to put who in each position.

RonCo · 11-29-2005, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

So, how should it work in your opinion?

I believe starters tend to have at least to quality pitches and generally another 1-2 to go along with it. If a guy has 3 quality pitches, he's an ace. Guys with fewer pitches I believe tend to find roles in the pen. Guys with 1 superior pitch become closers. Maybe that's too simplistic, but I think it's about right.

If the game goes with a different separation, I think it's always going to be a little clunky. Endurance doesn't really work because in real life a middle-reliever who is moved into a starter's role can (in a short while) be stretched to go 100-120 pitches, assuming he's not already been pelted due to his weaker arsenal of pitches.

Ultimately, you need endurance as a parameter because some guys aren't ready to throw 120 pitches at the drop of a hat, but to be realistic, endurance should probably change based on a pitcher's usage pattern rahter than be subject to an arbirary "talent/potential" hit or bump. I always hate that. My 24-year-old pitcher wakes up one morning and suddenly finds he can't throw 110 pitches anymore. Anyway...I digress.

In light of the suggestion, a pitcher doesn't need to have a "position" other than pitcher. A manager should really be able to assign a "pitcher" to any "role" on the team at any time. If I start Jeff Fasserro and he's not stretched out and only goes 2 innings, well, that's how it goes. You also need endurance to adequately model a pitcher's aging process, I think. I guy who is 38 probably has more difficulty staying in games long enough to throw 120 pitches, though I'm going by intuition here rather than real data...which is probably available. So, endurance needs to stick around as a parameter for lots of good reasons.

Did any of that help?

11-29-2005, 02:30 PM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	Pitcher Roles How wil Pitching roles be handled? I hate the way the game curently does it. Endurance sems to be the big factor. Many times a club will bring up a very talented prospect and stick him in the Pen to start, just to see how he does. It sn'tbasedon endurance.

11-29-2005, 03:53 PM	#9
Deft All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,113	What defines a SP or MR or Closer? I don' t think I have the definitive answer but playing ball at several level, I can try and explain what goes into the roles and why I would revamp the ratings. Starting Pitcher- Has more than 2 pitches that he can throw in the zone Has the stamina to stay in the game for more than 5 innings Has problems recovering from pitching in a short time span (not a requirement but could prevent them from relieving often) Closer- Has nerve to not get rattled and face pressure situations Has one or two outstanding pitches Often doesn't have 3-4 pitches to get hitters out multiple times Has quick recovery skills Middle Relievers- Has rubber arm that allows them to throw several innings several days in a row Often doesn't have the skills of the other two roles So I think the pitchers should have pitches (Fastball, Curveball, etc..) that they have ratings in. I also think Endurace and Recovery should be separated. If the individual pitch ratings can get rolled up into a general rating that would make it as accessible to the moderate player as it is currently. __________________ ATHL Louisville Jockeys (2001-present) 2002, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2020 World Champions Uniform Template 1.2

11-29-2005, 04:02 PM	#11
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	Dola, It seems to me that it would also make sense to make how "prone" a player is to injury a hidden rating. Maybe have some sort of injury history for a player before you even draft them, though, to give hints as to whether they are prone or not. __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

11-29-2005, 05:35 PM	#16
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	I understand and agree that this is a part of the game that needs work, but you also need to realize that this is a very difficult part of the game to implement (talking about the waivers problem) and test. You are just going to have to take the good with the bad right now. I guarantee you that the next version will be better in this area, but it still won't be perfect. __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac Last edited by andymac; 11-29-2005 at 05:37 PM.

11-29-2005, 05:36 PM	#17
Sublimity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: This thread. Posts: 3,199	I like the idea of having a recovery time associated at least with relievers. __________________ mrs ria: I hereby dub Sublimity the Glorious Upholder of the 5B3. Current leading vote-getter in the Worst Poster in OT History poll.

11-29-2005, 02:42 PM	#2
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	So, how should it work in your opinion?

11-29-2005, 02:56 PM	#3
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Life, friends, is boring. Posts: 840	http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=105771

11-29-2005, 02:57 PM	#4
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	Well, Perhaps Endurance should be a hidden rating...after that I think Teams should be looking at Pitching ratings. In other words, no SP, MR or CL. Every pitcher is just that...a pitcher. Itwould than be up to each team to figure out how to use the player. I just don't think releif pitchers are in thebulpen because of endurance issues, usally it's because they don't have what it takes to be a starter or are a borderline case. You could make the argumet that closers are very good, but often they are lacking in some areas, or they'd be a starter. They might have great stuff and high volocity pitches, but por control and movement. It should be up to the GMand scoting staff and coaching personnel to decide what players go where, based on the ratings.

11-29-2005, 03:04 PM	#5
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	To Delve in even further...I know you can change pitcher roles, but the AI doesn't do it (or at least correctly), so I feel this sstem is better. Now when players sign contracts and you tel them what role you want them to be , it could be a factor. Eg. Players promised to be starting who now find themselves in the Pen could get upset and not resignordemand a tradeand become a problem in the clubhouse. I just don't like the pre-determined roles.

11-29-2005, 03:43 PM	#8
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	Just to illustrate my point: Right now I'm about to claim a five star MR pitcher with an endurance rating of 7 on a scale of 1-8. Why is he on waivers? Answer: because he is considered a MR by the AI. When I claim him, which I will in a day(waivers were not revoced) I will promptly turn him into a starter. This shouldn't be happening.

11-29-2005, 05:32 PM	#14
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	Sorry...I'm just trying to illustrate a point,I think this is a big flaw that I wan't aware of before.

11-29-2005, 05:33 PM	#15
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,134	I think it just shows the need to edo this area of OTTP.

11-29-2005, 06:04 PM	#18
theasfl Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Coral Springs, FL or Orlando, FL (UCF) Posts: 7,988	I personally like the current endurance rating, but perhaps make it possible at spring training to try to turn a MR into an SP by gaining endurance and pitch selection or something of that nature. Im not completely against this, but it seems to drastic. __________________ All-Sports Fantasy League The ASFL 22 different games, 9 sports. Please check out the website (www.theasfl.com/asfl2/). The league is free- if you're interested please fill out the signup form and/or email the commissioner. Miami Talons (ABL): 2004, 2005 & 2008 Champs

11-29-2005, 06:05 PM	#19
atlbraves Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 315	OK I think there should be an option of whether to hide or see their endurance ratings to fit what kind of challenge you would want. If you hide your rating, you then have to test out who is fit for each position and then go on from there. If you can see the rating, then the challenge is less harder and you know where to put who in each position.