Talk about a bad day.....

[TigerGDK]

Playing around in a pure sim league (fictional players, challenge mode) and I had a funny box score I just had to investigate: The log shows this (Note: I just switched hook to slow prior to this weeks sims):

Batting Chicago (A), bottom of 3rd
Pitching: Fernando Briseno

RF Haro Koetsu:
Strikes out swinging.

2B Jackie Cabrera
Reaches on a fielding error by the first baseman.

CF David Mansell:
Popped out to shortstop.

SS Jorge Vargo:
SINGLES to left
Cabrera to second.

C Dustin Bourgeois:
3-RUN HOMERUN to deep right field. (368 feet)

1B Charles Bourque:
SOLO HOMERUN down the right field line. (367 feete)

LF Donald Mcgheee:
SOLO HOMERUN down the right field line. (397 feet)

DH Wade Ewen:

Base on Balls.

3B Charlie Iraheta:
2-RUN HOMERUN to deep right field. (451 feet)

RF Haro Koetsu:
SOLO HOMERUN to deep center field. (440 feet)

2b Jackie Cabrera:
Grounds out to shortstop.

5 HOMERUNS? 8 runs? And not pulled?? And.... get this... every run UNCHARGED!!!

F. Brisent (L) 3.1IP, 7H, 8R, 0ER, 1BB 3K 3.86ERA

(Yes, I see how the runs were unearned --- but talk about misleading statistics!!!) <G>

TIgerGDK

[pmd62ndst]

I guess Jose Canseco was unavailable that game?

[majormet]

That is wild, good post. It was funny today I was talking to my client with the last name Bourgeois and how no one had that name until Dustin popped up on the message board with a 3 run tater.

[Killer_Bs]

How can the HomeRuns not be charged as earned runs?

I haven't ever heard this about baseball scoring before.

Is it because the homeruns would not have happened if it hadn't been for the error?

[TigerGDK]

[quote]<http://www.ootpbb.com/board/ubb/icons/icon10.gif> posted March 28, 2002 04:31 PM [Profile for TigerGDK] [Email TigerGDK] [Send New Private Message] [Edit/Delete Post] [Reply With Quote] Playing around in a pure sim league (fictional players, challenge mode) and I had a funny box score I just had to investigate: The log shows this (Note: I just switched hook to slow prior to this weeks sims):

Batting Chicago (A), bottom of 3rd
Pitching: Fernando Briseno

RF Haro Koetsu:
Strikes out swinging.

2B Jackie Cabrera
Reaches on a fielding error by the first baseman.

CF David Mansell:
Popped out to shortstop.

SS Jorge Vargo:
SINGLES to left
Cabrera to second.

C Dustin Bourgeois:
3-RUN HOMERUN to deep right field. (368 feet)
<hr></blockquote>

I'm not an expert on baseball scoring, but my line of reasoning is this:

2B Carbrera reaches base on an error with one out (He should have been out #2).
Next at bat CF Mansell pops out. SHOULD have been out 3 -- end of inning. Everything that happened in the inning shouldn't have, and so were unearned runs.

TigerGDK

[Henry]

Correct. All unearned, but an excellent example of why the rules are sometimes also wrong. It has always bothered me that the pitcher gets off the hook for "everything" once the inning shouldn't have been... if it were up to me - which of course it isn't and never will be - the guys on base are the only "unearned runs". Once those guys score, it should be a clean slate again.

[Cardinal Rule]

[quote]Originally posted by Henry:
<strong>Correct. All unearned, but an excellent example of why the rules are sometimes also wrong. It has always bothered me that the pitcher gets off the hook for "everything" once the inning shouldn't have been... if it were up to me - which of course it isn't and never will be - the guys on base are the only "unearned runs". Once those guys score, it should be a clean slate again.</strong><hr></blockquote>


This also shows why ERA is not the single most important statistic for a pitcher. In a case like this, WHIP would better reflect the pitcher's performance. Funny how ERA and wins seem to be the most commonly referenced pitcher statistics yet they are two statistics which are not completely indicative of the individual performance.

[JML]

Mmmmmmmm, pistol WHIP.....

[Dagrims]

One interesting (at least to me) addendum to the example provided by the original poster:

If a relief pitcher would have entered the game after Vargo got the two-out single, and Bourgeois hits the three-run homer off the RP, the RP gets credited with one earned run given up, while the run is unearned for the team. Additionally, each run scored after that gets credited to the reliever as an earned run, but to the team as a whole as an unearned run. From the MLB Official Rules 2000 Edition, Section 10.18 - The Official Scorer, Earned Runs:

[quote]NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge relief pitchers with earned runs for which they are solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. EXAMPLES: (1) With two out, P1 walks A. B reaches base on an error. P2 relieves P1. C hits home run, scoring three runs. Charge two unearned runs to P1, one earned run to P2. <hr></blockquote>

Chris - font of useless information

[Henry]

My point exactly... if they clean the slate (minus runners) for releif pitchers... what's the logic in not doing so for the previous pitcher ?

[joshuaaaaaa]

The biggest flaw in ERA (IMO) is pitchers being charged for a run when a reliever allows the run to score. In this day and age of computers, a small change could show pitchers effectiveness much better.

What if, when a reliever came in, any inherited runners who scored were charged 1/2 to the pitcher who allowed the runner to reach base, and 1/2 to the reliever? I think this would show the value of a good reliever a whole lot more and not penalize starters whose bullpens don't get the job done.

It would also show who the true ace closers really are. If a closer comes in with his team up by 3 runs, 2 outs and the bases loaded, even if he lets 2 of the runners score, if he closes the game out, it looks just like a save from a guy who came in with bases loaded, no one out and struck out the side. Here, if he's charged with 1 of the runs (1/2 of the 2 inherited runners who scored), his ERA goes up and it numerically shows how much less effective he was.

This is something I've thought about for a couple of years, and I'm curious what others think of the idea.

[mondala]

I beleive that the computer is not the limitation... but it is rather that ootp is sticking with the mbl rules as far as inherited runners goes. Maybe a togglable filter would do the trick for what your mentioning, the code would easily be implementable for that. I'm fine with the way it is however. You just have to take for granted that all releivers are on the same grounds as far as receiving inherited runners and thus the e.r.a is still reflecting who the good closers/releivers are.

[joshuaaaaaa]

[quote]Originally posted by mondala:
<strong>I beleive that the computer is not the limitation... but it is rather that ootp is sticking with the mbl rules as far as inherited runners goes. Maybe a togglable filter would do the trick for what your mentioning, the code would easily be implementable for that. I'm fine with the way it is however. You just have to take for granted that all releivers are on the same grounds as far as receiving inherited runners and thus the e.r.a is still reflecting who the good closers/releivers are.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oops, I should clarify. This was not a change I thought would be good for OOTP, it was a change I thought would be good for MLB. IMO, relievers are generally unappreciated.

To me, a reliever who strands most of his inherited baserunners is much more valuable than on who lets 75% of them score. These days, its easy enough to find that percentage in Baseball Weekly or something similar, however ERA is available everywhere and having a more 'realistic' figure there would make a snap analysis of pitchers easier.

[jjmac69]

ouch