Pacific Coast League 1920-30?

rasnell · 03-02-2005, 04:52 AM

Has anyone ever done OOTP rosters for the Pacific Coast League of the 1920s and 1930s?

Is there even a database of stats and rosters for that era?

I love Le Grande Orange's post of the American Association and International League histories and I got to thinking about how great it would be if anyone had access to PCL rosters and data to create an OOTP set.

Vezna31 · 03-02-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasnell

Has anyone ever done OOTP rosters for the Pacific Coast League of the 1920s and 1930s?

Is there even a database of stats and rosters for that era?

I love Le Grande Orange's post of the American Association and International League histories and I got to thinking about how great it would be if anyone had access to PCL rosters and data to create an OOTP set.

I'm not sure, but you can try here:

http://www.ootpdownloadcenter.com/

Le Grande Orange · 03-03-2005, 02:08 AM

Well, I'm up to 1975 in the PCL history file, if that's of any interest.

Though the work on it reminded me how much of a pain the PCL schedules are in many of its seasons, particularly the earlier years.

As to a PCL player file, I'd love to see something one step beyond that: a Lahman Database-style file for all the players in the PCL, AA, and IL. Now that would be amazing. One could then, in a given year, not only start the majors with the real players but also the AAA level of the minors with the real players as well.

Of course, something like that would be an utterly enormous project. If I could get hired to do that as an actual job, I'd take it in a second! There's so much material available on the majors, but the minors are sadly neglected for the most part... it'd be great to be the one to help rectify that...

rasnell · 03-03-2005, 03:40 AM

Thanks for the link, but I see nothing re: PCL, Verzna.

That was my hope, LeGrande Orange, that there was some sort of database out there like Lahman. What amazes me about the 1920s and 1930s is that many players preferred to stay in the Pacific Coast League than to play in the majors -- better weather, better fan support, decent pay compared to the majors.

Your thought of all these minor league databases would really tie in nicely as OOTP 7 plans multiple leagues within the game. Maybe that will spark a roster fanatic to recreate the American Association, International League and PCL to some extent. But finding the data would be the first step.

It's a shame that there's no minor league baseball encyclopeida.

darkhorse · 03-03-2005, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasnell

It's a shame that there's no minor league baseball encyclopedia.

http://www.sicherheitsmeister.com/si...//Content.html

Le Grande Orange · 03-03-2005, 04:44 AM

There's a newer version which is going to be out sometime this year, at least that's what's been mentioned on the SABR listserv.

The thing is, neither has much in the way of detailed individual player stats beyond the league leaders. If you want lots of individual player stats, you have to look for books dedicated to the individual league, which can be quite good, but are generally limited to only a few decades of coverage.

I'd still prefer to see a full-blown player database...

Eugene Church · 03-03-2005, 11:37 AM

I got my local library to get me a copy of The Encyclopedia of Minor League Baseball on loan through the inter-library loan system...and LGO is exactly right...it is great for league standings and league leaders in pitching and batting...but not for individual stats.

The best I have seen are the Baseball Guides that The Sporting News or Spaulding used to publish every season and give the individual stats for batting, pitching and even fielding for every minor league...they truly are wonderful books if you really want detailed stats...you have enough information to create pretty accurate ratings for minor league players.

The guides were fantastic and included all of the minor leagues that played each season. I had one for the year of 1954 when I was a kid and used to create my own card baseball game...modelled on APBA...and use the guide to create players for my league...Still remember Russ Snyder and Dean Stafford as outstanding minor league hitters in that year.

I think they began publishing these guides in 1913.

I contacted The Sporting News to see if they were still available and found out you might get access to them in St. Louis...they really were not very cooperative or helpful. The Minor League Baseball Association is of no help either...I even contacted individual leagues thinking they surely would have the complete individual stats...only the Texas League was helpful...they sent me their Media Guide...but it didn't have individual stats for all seasons...only league records...SABR wasn't any help either...none of their researchers responded to my emails.

It would be a massive job to collect all of them.

One of our OOTPB Forum members has copies of these...maybe a full set...he shared a few years with me (Southern Association and Texas Leagues 1943 and 1946-1948) when I wanted to recreate those leagues and have a Dixie Series between their league champions each year)...and they are great. But it is asking too much of him to supply that info...he was very nice to help me though.

seth70liz76 · 03-03-2005, 12:51 PM

The Early Coast League Statistical Record, 1903-1957, introduced by Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh
A complete Pacific Coast League encyclopedia, for years 1903-1957. Major essays on how it was to be a player, by former Coast League players Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh. Complete stats for every player in the league, presented in year-by-year, team-by-team format, with 13 batting categories and 15 for pitchers. Also included leader boards, season and lifetime record holders, league officials, playoff records and attendance figures for the 1919-1957 period by club. Many of the statistics have never been published before.

I found this book surfing for PCL info--haven't bought it yet, so I don't know how complete it is.

ctorg · 03-03-2005, 12:53 PM

The company McFarland & Co. has lots of books that contain stats from old and minor leagues. I know they have PCL stats available.

Eugene Church · 03-03-2005, 05:07 PM

This sounds like a pretty good book.

http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.p...=0-7864-0045-5

bulldog55 · 03-03-2005, 05:09 PM

Diamond Mind Baseball has PCL disks. In recreating the PCL of the mid-50's I got a friend to send me the stats for several seasons. Don't have them anymore unfortunately, but they're out there.

seth70liz76 · 03-03-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seth70liz76

The Early Coast League Statistical Record, 1903-1957, introduced by Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh
A complete Pacific Coast League encyclopedia, for years 1903-1957. Major essays on how it was to be a player, by former Coast League players Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh. Complete stats for every player in the league, presented in year-by-year, team-by-team format, with 13 batting categories and 15 for pitchers. Also included leader boards, season and lifetime record holders, league officials, playoff records and attendance figures for the 1919-1957 period by club. Many of the statistics have never been published before.

I found this book surfing for PCL info--haven't bought it yet, so I don't know how complete it is.

This note was attached to a write up on Hardball.com about the above booK:

The Pacific Coast League performance by Gavvy Cravath is found in The Early Coast League Statistical Record, 1903-1957 (Baseball Press Books, 2004), compiled by Carlos Bauer. I just got this one in the mail a couple of weeks ago, and I can tell already it's going to be one of my very most valuable resources. My copy came with a very nice handwritten note of thanks from the author. How cool is that?

And this page has an example of his work

bulldog55 · 03-03-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seth70liz76

The Early Coast League Statistical Record, 1903-1957, introduced by Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh
A complete Pacific Coast League encyclopedia, for years 1903-1957. Major essays on how it was to be a player, by former Coast League players Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh. Complete stats for every player in the league, presented in year-by-year, team-by-team format, with 13 batting categories and 15 for pitchers. Also included leader boards, season and lifetime record holders, league officials, playoff records and attendance figures for the 1919-1957 period by club. Many of the statistics have never been published before.

I found this book surfing for PCL info--haven't bought it yet, so I don't know how complete it is.

Has anyone seen this book?

knuckler · 03-03-2005, 05:43 PM

I've done some extensive searches on-line, and so far the best i can come up with is Portland Beaver stats:

http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com..._1950_1959.htm

The Diamond Mind disks:

http://www.diamond-mind.com/products/exchange.htm

The trouble is you need the game to read the stats, and the guy who did it for Bulldog doesn't frequent BBSC much anymore.

I personally have ordered the book that EC linked to. A friend of mine and I are going to attempt to put together something using the Snelling book, but I know we're looking at an enormous project.

bulldog55 · 03-03-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckler

I've done some extensive searches on-line, and so far the best i can come up with is Portland Beaver stats:

http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com..._1950_1959.htm

The Diamond Mind disks:

http://www.diamond-mind.com/products/exchange.htm

The trouble is you need the game to read the stats, and the guy who did it for Bulldog doesn't frequent BBSC much anymore.

I personally have ordered the book that EC linked to. A friend of mine and I are going to attempt to put together something using the Snelling book, but I know we're looking at an enormous project.

You should have checked your BBSC PM's before coming to OOTPDev.

Vezna31 · 03-03-2005, 05:45 PM

I found this:

http://pclbaseball.com/history/

knuckler · 03-03-2005, 05:49 PM

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of info at that PCL site, and no stats. That Portland link has all of Portland's stats from the 1900s to the 1950s. Something like that for all of the teams would be needed to create a lahman style database from the beginning.

Vezna31 · 03-03-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knuckler

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of info at that PCL site, and no stats. That Portland link has all of Portland's stats from the 1900s to the 1950s. Something like that for all of the teams would be needed to create a lahman style database from the beginning.

It's a link to order the book that Seth70Liz76 posted about.

rasnell · 03-03-2005, 11:57 PM

Thank you all for such outstanding responses. I belong to SABR and have played OOTP since the start. In a few short days, the extent of the answers here to my original thread show what a great baseball community is right here with the simmers.

I would love to see this lead to something where the PCL database for OOTP is just like downloading Lahman, or Ankit or Halofan rosters.

This becomes especially wonderful and historic with Markus' plans for multi-leagues within OOTP 7.

Thanks again everyone. Tell us more about the stat book referenced above for those who order it. I'd like to pursue that myself, too.

seth70liz76 · 03-04-2005, 01:31 AM

I'm e-mailing a person I've had some contact with (on-line) who has these sites covering the old PCL--there is basic triple crown info for most of the teams--to see if he knows of a good reference guide. I explained that there is interest in building a DB for the old PCL, if someone who actually knows something about those clubs/players could at least be an unofficial advisor (about park factors, defense, etc) it could be a big help. I'll let everyone know what his response is.

I'm also contacting the Pacific Coast League Historical Society.

03-02-2005, 04:52 AM	#1
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frankfort, Kentucky Posts: 3,746	Pacific Coast League 1920-30? Has anyone ever done OOTP rosters for the Pacific Coast League of the 1920s and 1930s? Is there even a database of stats and rosters for that era? I love Le Grande Orange's post of the American Association and International League histories and I got to thinking about how great it would be if anyone had access to PCL rosters and data to create an OOTP set.

03-03-2005, 11:37 AM	#7
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,225	I got my local library to get me a copy of The Encyclopedia of Minor League Baseball on loan through the inter-library loan system...and LGO is exactly right...it is great for league standings and league leaders in pitching and batting...but not for individual stats. The best I have seen are the Baseball Guides that The Sporting News or Spaulding used to publish every season and give the individual stats for batting, pitching and even fielding for every minor league...they truly are wonderful books if you really want detailed stats...you have enough information to create pretty accurate ratings for minor league players. The guides were fantastic and included all of the minor leagues that played each season. I had one for the year of 1954 when I was a kid and used to create my own card baseball game...modelled on APBA...and use the guide to create players for my league...Still remember Russ Snyder and Dean Stafford as outstanding minor league hitters in that year. I think they began publishing these guides in 1913. I contacted The Sporting News to see if they were still available and found out you might get access to them in St. Louis...they really were not very cooperative or helpful. The Minor League Baseball Association is of no help either...I even contacted individual leagues thinking they surely would have the complete individual stats...only the Texas League was helpful...they sent me their Media Guide...but it didn't have individual stats for all seasons...only league records...SABR wasn't any help either...none of their researchers responded to my emails. It would be a massive job to collect all of them. One of our OOTPB Forum members has copies of these...maybe a full set...he shared a few years with me (Southern Association and Texas Leagues 1943 and 1946-1948) when I wanted to recreate those leagues and have a Dixie Series between their league champions each year)...and they are great. But it is asking too much of him to supply that info...he was very nice to help me though. Last edited by Eugene Church; 03-03-2005 at 11:46 AM.

03-03-2005, 12:51 PM	#8
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	The Early Coast League Statistical Record, 1903-1957, introduced by Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh A complete Pacific Coast League encyclopedia, for years 1903-1957. Major essays on how it was to be a player, by former Coast League players Chuck Stevens & Roger Osenbaugh. Complete stats for every player in the league, presented in year-by-year, team-by-team format, with 13 batting categories and 15 for pitchers. Also included leader boards, season and lifetime record holders, league officials, playoff records and attendance figures for the 1919-1957 period by club. Many of the statistics have never been published before. I found this book surfing for PCL info--haven't bought it yet, so I don't know how complete it is. __________________ It was a mistake to come back.

03-03-2005, 12:53 PM	#9
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	The company McFarland & Co. has lots of books that contain stats from old and minor leagues. I know they have PCL stats available. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-03-2005, 05:09 PM	#11
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,481	Diamond Mind Baseball has PCL disks. In recreating the PCL of the mid-50's I got a friend to send me the stats for several seasons. Don't have them anymore unfortunately, but they're out there. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

03-03-2005, 02:08 AM	#3
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	Well, I'm up to 1975 in the PCL history file, if that's of any interest. Though the work on it reminded me how much of a pain the PCL schedules are in many of its seasons, particularly the earlier years. As to a PCL player file, I'd love to see something one step beyond that: a Lahman Database-style file for all the players in the PCL, AA, and IL. Now that would be amazing. One could then, in a given year, not only start the majors with the real players but also the AAA level of the minors with the real players as well. Of course, something like that would be an utterly enormous project. If I could get hired to do that as an actual job, I'd take it in a second! There's so much material available on the majors, but the minors are sadly neglected for the most part... it'd be great to be the one to help rectify that...

03-03-2005, 03:40 AM	#4
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frankfort, Kentucky Posts: 3,746	Thanks for the link, but I see nothing re: PCL, Verzna. That was my hope, LeGrande Orange, that there was some sort of database out there like Lahman. What amazes me about the 1920s and 1930s is that many players preferred to stay in the Pacific Coast League than to play in the majors -- better weather, better fan support, decent pay compared to the majors. Your thought of all these minor league databases would really tie in nicely as OOTP 7 plans multiple leagues within the game. Maybe that will spark a roster fanatic to recreate the American Association, International League and PCL to some extent. But finding the data would be the first step. It's a shame that there's no minor league baseball encyclopeida.

03-03-2005, 04:44 AM	#6
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,642	There's a newer version which is going to be out sometime this year, at least that's what's been mentioned on the SABR listserv. The thing is, neither has much in the way of detailed individual player stats beyond the league leaders. If you want lots of individual player stats, you have to look for books dedicated to the individual league, which can be quite good, but are generally limited to only a few decades of coverage. I'd still prefer to see a full-blown player database...

03-03-2005, 05:07 PM	#10
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,225	This sounds like a pretty good book. http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.p...=0-7864-0045-5

03-03-2005, 05:43 PM	#14
knuckler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,347	I've done some extensive searches on-line, and so far the best i can come up with is Portland Beaver stats: http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com..._1950_1959.htm The Diamond Mind disks: http://www.diamond-mind.com/products/exchange.htm The trouble is you need the game to read the stats, and the guy who did it for Bulldog doesn't frequent BBSC much anymore. I personally have ordered the book that EC linked to. A friend of mine and I are going to attempt to put together something using the Snelling book, but I know we're looking at an enormous project.

03-03-2005, 05:45 PM	#16
Vezna31 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wherever My VPN says Posts: 1,989	I found this: http://pclbaseball.com/history/

03-03-2005, 05:49 PM	#17
knuckler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,347	Unfortunately there isn't a lot of info at that PCL site, and no stats. That Portland link has all of Portland's stats from the 1900s to the 1950s. Something like that for all of the teams would be needed to create a lahman style database from the beginning.

03-03-2005, 11:57 PM	#19
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Frankfort, Kentucky Posts: 3,746	Thank you all for such outstanding responses. I belong to SABR and have played OOTP since the start. In a few short days, the extent of the answers here to my original thread show what a great baseball community is right here with the simmers. I would love to see this lead to something where the PCL database for OOTP is just like downloading Lahman, or Ankit or Halofan rosters. This becomes especially wonderful and historic with Markus' plans for multi-leagues within OOTP 7. Thanks again everyone. Tell us more about the stat book referenced above for those who order it. I'd like to pursue that myself, too.

03-04-2005, 01:31 AM	#20
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	I'm e-mailing a person I've had some contact with (on-line) who has these sites covering the old PCL--there is basic triple crown info for most of the teams--to see if he knows of a good reference guide. I explained that there is interest in building a DB for the old PCL, if someone who actually knows something about those clubs/players could at least be an unofficial advisor (about park factors, defense, etc) it could be a big help. I'll let everyone know what his response is. I'm also contacting the Pacific Coast League Historical Society. __________________ It was a mistake to come back. Last edited by seth70liz76; 03-04-2005 at 01:36 AM.