Suppan's baserunning blunder

thehatfield · 11-10-2004, 09:53 AM

Now that two weeks have passed - are there still rumblings about Jeff Suppan's baserunning error in Game 3 of the World Series out in St. Louis? Does anyone else think of that play as the deathblow to the Cards' chances in the Series? I'm just trying to get my head around exactly how important or unimportant that one mistake is in baseball lore.

jnshmoo · 11-10-2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Cowboy

Now that two weeks have passed - are there still rumblings about Jeff Suppan's baserunning error in Game 3 of the World Series out in St. Louis? Does anyone else think of that play as the deathblow to the Cards' chances in the Series? I'm just trying to get my head around exactly how important or unimportant that one mistake is in baseball lore.

My vote is extremely unimportant. Even if he had scored, it wouldn't have changed anything. The Cardinals didn't have a chance. The Sox were supercharged and nothing was going to stop them. The whole Curse thing may have just been a psychological thing, but I think the emotions that it caused helped them step it up a notch.

jnshmoo · 11-10-2004, 10:04 AM

dola,

Shouldn't this have been a poll?

andjbock · 11-10-2004, 10:06 AM

It definitely swung the momentum in the Sox favor after that. But how long does that momentum actually last? I don't think that it carries over too far thereafter,. It was a crucial mistake given it was in the WS and what not, but this was in the first innining of the game and the Cards had plenty of time to re-establish themselves during the game.

Gastric ReFlux · 11-10-2004, 10:10 AM

I've gone and replayed that game with OOTP, pinch running for Suppan so as to eliminate the baserunning error. In 100,000 sims with that pinch runner, the Cards won!

CommishJoe · 11-10-2004, 10:11 AM

I think it was as important as Mariano's leadoff walk in the 9th inning of game 4. By itself, it didn't win/lose the game. However, it did give the Sox an edge which they exploited.

thehatfield · 11-10-2004, 10:12 AM

Good point.

As for the poll, I thought about it but I really just sort of wanted to go for the "lore" angle (my deathblow statement is a nod to the unposted poll) and wanted a more general discussion on the blunder rather than it being the key moment of the Series. My thinking is that if the Cards were ever going to have a chance in the Series, it was lost right there and that's what amplifies the error to me.

thehatfield · 11-10-2004, 10:14 AM

skipaway,

Of course, discussing the blunder focuses DIRECTLY ON its importance!!!

I need more coffee.

ctorg · 11-10-2004, 10:14 AM

If the Series had been closer, maybe people would have cared more. But since it was such a blowout, it really didn't make a big difference.

Gastric ReFlux · 11-10-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

If the Series had been closer, maybe people would have cared more. But since it was such a blowout, it really didn't make a big difference.

Yeah, it's hard to see it as a pivotal turning point when in a sweep there is hardly anything upon which to pivot.

Dagrims · 11-10-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

My vote is extremely unimportant.

This disillusionment of our nation's youth is what cost Kerry the election. Every vote counts!

jnshmoo · 11-10-2004, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagrims

This disillusionment of our nation's youth is what cost Kerry the election. Every vote counts!

I suppose that next you'll be telling me that Every Sperm is Sacred too?

Geez! AcCOUNTants.

ctorg · 11-10-2004, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

I suppose that next you'll be telling me that Every Sperm is Sacred too?

Geez! AcCOUNTants.

God loves those who treat their semen with more care.

Dagrims · 11-10-2004, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

I suppose that next you'll be telling me that Every Sperm is Sacred too?

Geez! AcCOUNTants.

If this were OT I would continue this discussion, but since it's Talk Sports I won't. I believe that Suppan's blunder wasn't nearly as critical as the Cardinals inability to take the lead in Game one after coming from behind to tie the game at seven. When the Red Sox retook the lead, it seemed to deflate St. Louis' offense completely.

Anachronism · 11-10-2004, 11:13 AM

I don't think the actual play itself IN ISOLATION was critical.

What I think was critical was the fact that due to lackluster play of St. Louis before that play, the baserunning play seems to totally deflate the Cardinals. It was almost as if after that play the team mentally folded and just accepted that Boston was a team of destiny.

atarizx3 · 11-10-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagrims

I believe that Suppan's blunder wasn't nearly as critical as the Cardinals inability to take the lead in Game one after coming from behind to tie the game at seven. When the Red Sox retook the lead, it seemed to deflate St. Louis' offense completely.

I completely agree.

Suppan's baserunning was not that big of a deal. The "swing" had already happened in game one. #1 was the game that would have changed things.

It's all conjecture now anyway, but I do agree with Dags on this one.

Operation Shutdown · 11-10-2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

I suppose that next you'll be telling me that Every Sperm is Sacred too?

Geez! AcCOUNTants.

That's why every time I GMJO, I collect it and put it a vial and freeze it. Which reminds me, I need to go shopping to buy another freezer.

LVance · 11-10-2004, 12:59 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!1

Not another "omg, 1 play lost 4 games" idea. The blunder screwed up 1 inning. I don't think it holds ANY significance in the Boston sweep.

SoxWin · 11-10-2004, 02:58 PM

Next thing you know they'll be blaming a series loss on someone for a fielding error....

thehatfield · 11-10-2004, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVance

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!1

Not another "omg, 1 play lost 4 games" idea. The blunder screwed up 1 inning. I don't think it holds ANY significance in the Boston sweep.

I don't think its at all far-fetched or a wasted exercise to explore the broader ramifications of one play as it relates to the series as a whole. I do not think that baseball players, simply by attaching the word "professional" to them, are robots who operate independently with no thoughts at all about game events from pitch to pitch (well, maybe Manny is). Unless the CIA are using advanced brainwashing techniques on them or they've hired some Zen guru as bench coach to center everyone, I don't think its possible to ignore and shrug off significant blunders, especially in this case where it appeared the Cards' balloon sprung a fat leak.

Now that I've thought about this today, I tend to agree with Dagrims about the Cards not being able to take a lead in Game 1 being the overall "tone setting" moment. So the Suppan play becomes rather a huge nail in the coffin instead of a turning point - and as you smart folks have pointed out, tough to have a turning point in a sweep.

11-10-2004, 10:04 AM	#3
jnshmoo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Not Here Posts: 1,226	dola, Shouldn't this have been a poll? __________________ Beer Snob and Baseball Sim Geek

11-10-2004, 10:11 AM	#6
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	I think it was as important as Mariano's leadoff walk in the 9th inning of game 4. By itself, it didn't win/lose the game. However, it did give the Sox an edge which they exploited. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.

11-10-2004, 10:12 AM	#7
thehatfield All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: dirty jerz Posts: 1,339	Good point. As for the poll, I thought about it but I really just sort of wanted to go for the "lore" angle (my deathblow statement is a nod to the unposted poll) and wanted a more general discussion on the blunder rather than it being the key moment of the Series. My thinking is that if the Cards were ever going to have a chance in the Series, it was lost right there and that's what amplifies the error to me. __________________ AFBL - Maryland Bridegrooms SBC - Western Suburbs Magpies no pressure no problem

11-10-2004, 10:14 AM	#8
thehatfield All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: dirty jerz Posts: 1,339	skipaway, Of course, discussing the blunder focuses DIRECTLY ON its importance!!! I need more coffee. __________________ AFBL - Maryland Bridegrooms SBC - Western Suburbs Magpies no pressure no problem

11-10-2004, 10:14 AM	#9
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	If the Series had been closer, maybe people would have cared more. But since it was such a blowout, it really didn't make a big difference. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

11-10-2004, 09:53 AM	#1
thehatfield All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: dirty jerz Posts: 1,339	Suppan's baserunning blunder Now that two weeks have passed - are there still rumblings about Jeff Suppan's baserunning error in Game 3 of the World Series out in St. Louis? Does anyone else think of that play as the deathblow to the Cards' chances in the Series? I'm just trying to get my head around exactly how important or unimportant that one mistake is in baseball lore. __________________ AFBL - Maryland Bridegrooms SBC - Western Suburbs Magpies no pressure no problem Last edited by thehatfield; 11-10-2004 at 09:54 AM.

11-10-2004, 10:06 AM	#4
andjbock Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Somerville, MA, USA Bats: Right Throws: Left Posts: 3,640	It definitely swung the momentum in the Sox favor after that. But how long does that momentum actually last? I don't think that it carries over too far thereafter,. It was a crucial mistake given it was in the WS and what not, but this was in the first innining of the game and the Cards had plenty of time to re-establish themselves during the game.

11-10-2004, 10:10 AM	#5
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I've gone and replayed that game with OOTP, pinch running for Suppan so as to eliminate the baserunning error. In 100,000 sims with that pinch runner, the Cards won!

11-10-2004, 11:13 AM	#15
Anachronism All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great White North Posts: 945	I don't think the actual play itself IN ISOLATION was critical. What I think was critical was the fact that due to lackluster play of St. Louis before that play, the baserunning play seems to totally deflate the Cardinals. It was almost as if after that play the team mentally folded and just accepted that Boston was a team of destiny. __________________ "Ruth did it on Beer and Hotdogs..."

11-10-2004, 12:59 PM	#18
LVance Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 48	NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!1 Not another "omg, 1 play lost 4 games" idea. The blunder screwed up 1 inning. I don't think it holds ANY significance in the Boston sweep. __________________ Larry Vance, Colorado Rockies [ATH] http://www.raisedbykubrick.com/

11-10-2004, 02:58 PM	#19
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	Next thing you know they'll be blaming a series loss on someone for a fielding error.... __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera