New to OOTP from DMB person

bbfan66 · 02-25-2004, 01:05 PM

I have been playing Diamond Mind Baseball for years, but have recently been turned on to OOTP. I purchased OOTP5 and have downloaded a Total Minors roster from last year.

I am addicted to the game's management options: calling up players, transactions, etc. It is simply amazing. DMB doesn't have this the management option, so I think this limits it quite a bit, but how does OOTP sim engine compare with DMB's? I do prefer the pitch by pitch option in DMB. I have only played a couple of games, so I would like an opinion from someone who may have a familiarity with both games.

Thanks

sporr · 02-25-2004, 01:10 PM

The OOTP sim engine is pretty strong. It isn't based on stats like the DMB engine is. It's totally ratings driven. The good thing is that this system allows for some variance in player performance for year to year. In fact, two players with identical ratings will often perform quite differently. This makes it challenging just as it would be for a real major league manager. While DMB may excel at replaying season from the past, OOTP excels at playing "what if" scenarios where you want the randomness of actual baseball.

ctorg · 02-25-2004, 01:26 PM

OOTP and DMB have very different goals. They are, in many ways, not in the same game genre, despite both of them being sports games. The goal of DMB is to produce results similar to real life. You can basically expect any given player to perform pretty similarly to how he did in real life. The goal of OOTP is to create a dynamic fictional universe (even if you use real players) in which many things can happen. Ty Cobb may end up being a .280 hitter, and Barry Lyons may end up as the greatest hitting catcher of all time. It's not likely, but you just never know. Both of those things have happened to me in leagues. DMB will give you much more "real life" like results. OOTP does not care to do so. It is very open ended. Players develop from year to year in a way that is not predictable, but falls within realistic parameters for real players.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 02-25-2004, 01:33 PM

Well said sporr! I wonder how DMB9 will improve upon it's product. I am looking forward to the "encyclopedia" option! It will enable me to take my season disks and run them concurrently and then compare the cumulative results vs what really happened in history! However I do disagree with you in the "what if" scenario. DMB allows for "what if" scenarios, an example would be: What if the Boston Red Sox did not trade Babe Ruth to the Yankees? Or What if Ted Williams had not missed six years from his career fighting in WW2 and The Korean Conflict! Or What if Willie Mays had played the bulk of his career in a different ballpark other than the "Stick" where he lost dozens of homeruns to the powerful bay breeze that blew in from left field! You see?! It can be done and now with the encyclopedia function in DMB9 you can run the seasons, have the computer tabulate the results and compare them with real-life with amazing accuracy! That is where DMB shines over OOTP5 and any other Baseball Simulation!

Craig Scarborough · 02-25-2004, 02:03 PM

True, DMB excels at replicating the statistics for seasons you purchased. This allows you do what-if scenarios, but all of them are within the context of seasons already played. Therefore, you're always playing the game but have very little control on the "use" of individual players. I can't bring up a prospect and give him playing time unless he did so in real life. Also, I have a tremendous advantage that RL managers do not have - I know the guy's statistics for the year beforehand.

For instance, let's talk about Pat Burrell. In DMB, you KNOW he's going to stink all year long. Larry Bowa didn't - and he hoped that putting him out there everyday, he would break out of the season long slump. The same thing happens in OOTP - and that's what makes it fun for me. You're creating your own history and you don't know how things are going to end up. You don't know if guys are playing above their heads and vice versa.

Just my humble opinion, but it's why I like career-based simulations best, though I am a customer of both companies

.

KurtBevacqua · 02-25-2004, 02:40 PM

I had DMB for years. I must have sunk $500-600 in the game. I loved it. But it was too predictable. I hated running drafts knowing exactly how the players were supposed to perform. It killed the realism for me because IRL you have no way of knowing that Darryl Strawberry would actually be very good but Danny Goodwin would totally bomb. But in DMB you draft guys in history knowing ahead of time if they are HoF players or not. And when you draft against the AI you can't help but kill it knowing when the AI picks Steve Swisher and leaves you with Carlton Fisk that you are pretty much set. In OOTP5 maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Fisk looks pretty good, but with the dynamics of the game you'll never know for sure until you actually play him.

Argicee · 02-25-2004, 03:07 PM

All of the comments above are very legitimate. I enjoy both games, but for very different reasons, and the enjoyment I derive from each is very different.

That said, though, I think there is at least one area of both games that can be directly compared and contrasted. That area is the in-game managerial play. By that, I am referring to all of the nuances that make managing a single game against the computer exciting: Setting the line-ups, selecting the starting pitchers, making all of the dozens of in-game decisions, reading the text that describes each play, etc. Both DMB and OOTP provide this aspect of game play. And in my opinion, OOTP is not even close to DMB in terms of realistically portraying the managerial aspects of single-game play. (Please, don't flame me - OOTP does so many other things that DMB doesn't. It's just that single game management is where I derive most of my pleasure in these games)

The biggest deficiency in this regard, is the lack of pitch-by-pitch play in OOTP. Practically every decision must be made on an 0-0 count. When pitch-by-pitch was added to DMB several years ago, I was blown away by the difference it made in game play. I could go on about that difference, but I'll spare you.

Anyway, until OOTP adds pitch-by-pitch, it's single game managerial experience will continue to be weak.

Steve Kuffrey · 02-25-2004, 03:22 PM

That is also what DMB is all about, IN GAME. OOTP has that ability and it is and will be improved(as it should) but OOTP allows you to create a baseball universe which is what it is all about.

The two products, though having "some" similar features really cannot be compared fairly.

I could give you instances where DMB has made some extremely screwy player moves, etc so it is also far from the holy grail of baseball sims.

Steve Kuffrey · 02-25-2004, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtBevacqua
I had DMB for years. I must have sunk $500-600 in the game. I loved it. But it was too predictable. I hated running drafts knowing exactly how the players were supposed to perform. It killed the realism for me because IRL you have no way of knowing that Darryl Strawberry would actually be very good but Danny Goodwin would totally bomb. But in DMB you draft guys in history knowing ahead of time if they are HoF players or not. And when you draft against the AI you can't help but kill it knowing when the AI picks Steve Swisher and leaves you with Carlton Fisk that you are pretty much set. In OOTP5 maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Fisk looks pretty good, but with the dynamics of the game you'll never know for sure until you actually play him.

Excellent post and I would echo the thoughts here as well.

Argicee · 02-25-2004, 03:38 PM

Steve - I agree with your thoughtful reply. DMB is certainly not the Holy Grail, and OOTP does need to improve it's IN GAME play. I am encouraged that you think this improvement is needed in OOTP, too.

What discussions have there been between you and Marcus regarding implementing a full pitch mode in OOTP?

sporr · 02-25-2004, 04:25 PM

I haven't spoken with Markus or Steve on this, but I can tell you that full pitch mode is probably several versions down the road. The complexities involved would require quite a bit of a change to the game engine and may even be beyond the resources of the current OOTP crew.

Steve Kuffrey · 02-25-2004, 04:34 PM

Well, we've talked about it but currently it is not a high priority. Possibly something we will do down the road.

KurtBevacqua · 02-25-2004, 04:38 PM

The best feature I saw in DMB was its scheduler. If Marcus could somehow figure out how they do it. It lets you set how many games you play each team in any division, and makes a schedule that doesn't kill you with 45 consecutive days of games. It even allows doubleheaders. The DMB scheduler I think is even better than stickware.

I also like the DMB allows you to program your pitching staff. You can program in lefty-left and righty-righty pitcher-batter combinations.

I concede DMB has better gameplay, but I don't think it is light years better. I had DMB back when it didn't do pitch by pitch gameplay, and even when it got it I played it that way infrequently. Took too long to play a whole season that way. But except for subtle nuances, I think PbP is very similar between the two games. And both could stand some improvement from the AI decision making in gameplay.

Crapshoot · 02-25-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Argicee
All of the comments above are very legitimate. I enjoy both games, but for very different reasons, and the enjoyment I derive from each is very different.

That said, though, I think there is at least one area of both games that can be directly compared and contrasted. That area is the in-game managerial play. By that, I am referring to all of the nuances that make managing a single game against the computer exciting: Setting the line-ups, selecting the starting pitchers, making all of the dozens of in-game decisions, reading the text that describes each play, etc. Both DMB and OOTP provide this aspect of game play. And in my opinion, OOTP is not even close to DMB in terms of realistically portraying the managerial aspects of single-game play. (Please, don't flame me - OOTP does so many other things that DMB doesn't. It's just that single game management is where I derive most of my pleasure in these games)

The biggest deficiency in this regard, is the lack of pitch-by-pitch play in OOTP. Practically every decision must be made on an 0-0 count. When pitch-by-pitch was added to DMB several years ago, I was blown away by the difference it made in game play. I could go on about that difference, but I'll spare you.

Anyway, until OOTP adds pitch-by-pitch, it's single game managerial experience will continue to be weak.

No one should (or will) flame you- I think you're dead on. Personally, I value in game a lot less, but I agree that it is the biggest weakness in OOTP, along with the finances to some extent. I will argue though, that to some extent- this is because of the priorities- I think Markus has made the decision to focus on the GM aspects and the customability on a more macro level, as that tends to be the selling point of the game for what I would imagine is the majority.

Argicee · 02-25-2004, 05:12 PM

Aadik - You're right. And as one who gets tremendous enjoyment from the in-game managerial aspects, it has been a disappointment to see this as such a low priority in OOTP. Markus has developed an unbelievable game, and its appeal is to the majority of players who place less significance on the in-game aspects. I'll have to be patient for OOTP to evolve or for someone to create a game that combines OOTP's depth with DMD's in-game strengths.

CommishJoe · 02-25-2004, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtBevacqua
The best feature I saw in DMB was its scheduler. If Marcus could somehow figure out how they do it. It lets you set how many games you play each team in any division, and makes a schedule that doesn't kill you with 45 consecutive days of games. It even allows doubleheaders. The DMB scheduler I think is even better than stickware.

I also like the DMB allows you to program your pitching staff. You can program in lefty-left and righty-righty pitcher-batter combinations.

I concede DMB has better gameplay, but I don't think it is light years better. I had DMB back when it didn't do pitch by pitch gameplay, and even when it got it I played it that way infrequently. Took too long to play a whole season that way. But except for subtle nuances, I think PbP is very similar between the two games. And both could stand some improvement from the AI decision making in gameplay.

I'll agree that the schedule generator is a weakness in the game. Hopefully, it'll be worked on in future versions.

Bottom line, this is the best baseball simulator for leagues that I have ever seen. I've been running online leagues since 1999, and nothing comes close to OOTP. BBPro was on the right track before Sierra abandoned it.

bbfan66 · 02-25-2004, 06:02 PM

What an intelligent discussion. I can tell this board is well run. Thank you to all who responded. I had no idea this topic would create such interest. It is, however, interesting to discuss.

In my initial encounters with OOTP, I am certainly impressed. I just did not want to get involved with a season without knowing whether or not OOTP's sim and in-game engine were at least comparable to that of DMB's.

One thing that does frustrate me about DMB is when playing in a league against the computer, it is really frustrating keeping up with injuries, 25 man rosters, the DL, and all that other out-of-game stuff. It is definitely not fair to play a game against a team of 35-40 (which you need to keep on the computer managed teams to ensure players play enough) when you keep your own roster at 25.

When it comes to DMB, I really love their projection disk though. I will probably play both games and am really looking forward to OOTP6.

swampdragon · 02-25-2004, 07:47 PM

As someone who has played both games, my take is that OOTP does everything better than DMB except play baseball. Actually playing through games (as opposed to simming them) is a much better experience with DMB. The play-by-play is better, the variety of plays is superior, and the game just feels more like baseball. So I stay with DMB, although I am currently addicted to OOTPs boxing game. But OOTP does everything else better than DMB. The career mode is great. Setting up and managing your seasons is easy, and you don't have to pay $20 or $30 apiece for them. The touches like the newspaper are very nice, and the ability to add user-supplied parks, photos, logos etc. really sets the game apart. I still give a slight edge to DMB, but it's a real study in contrasts, and it really depends on what you want. If you sim most of your games and just want believable and somewhat unpredictable results as opposed to a high level of accuracy, you'll probably prefer OOTP.

Steely Glint · 02-25-2004, 07:54 PM

DMB is a better sim. OOTP is a much better game.

Apples and ornages.

Steely Glint · 02-25-2004, 07:56 PM

Oranges, even.

02-25-2004, 01:05 PM	#1
bbfan66 Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2	New to OOTP from DMB person I have been playing Diamond Mind Baseball for years, but have recently been turned on to OOTP. I purchased OOTP5 and have downloaded a Total Minors roster from last year. I am addicted to the game's management options: calling up players, transactions, etc. It is simply amazing. DMB doesn't have this the management option, so I think this limits it quite a bit, but how does OOTP sim engine compare with DMB's? I do prefer the pitch by pitch option in DMB. I have only played a couple of games, so I would like an opinion from someone who may have a familiarity with both games. Thanks

02-25-2004, 01:26 PM	#3
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	OOTP and DMB have very different goals. They are, in many ways, not in the same game genre, despite both of them being sports games. The goal of DMB is to produce results similar to real life. You can basically expect any given player to perform pretty similarly to how he did in real life. The goal of OOTP is to create a dynamic fictional universe (even if you use real players) in which many things can happen. Ty Cobb may end up being a .280 hitter, and Barry Lyons may end up as the greatest hitting catcher of all time. It's not likely, but you just never know. Both of those things have happened to me in leagues. DMB will give you much more "real life" like results. OOTP does not care to do so. It is very open ended. Players develop from year to year in a way that is not predictable, but falls within realistic parameters for real players. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

02-25-2004, 01:33 PM	#4
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	Well said sporr! I wonder how DMB9 will improve upon it's product. I am looking forward to the "encyclopedia" option! It will enable me to take my season disks and run them concurrently and then compare the cumulative results vs what really happened in history! However I do disagree with you in the "what if" scenario. DMB allows for "what if" scenarios, an example would be: What if the Boston Red Sox did not trade Babe Ruth to the Yankees? Or What if Ted Williams had not missed six years from his career fighting in WW2 and The Korean Conflict! Or What if Willie Mays had played the bulk of his career in a different ballpark other than the "Stick" where he lost dozens of homeruns to the powerful bay breeze that blew in from left field! You see?! It can be done and now with the encyclopedia function in DMB9 you can run the seasons, have the computer tabulate the results and compare them with real-life with amazing accuracy! That is where DMB shines over OOTP5 and any other Baseball Simulation! __________________ Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

02-25-2004, 02:40 PM	#6
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	I had DMB for years. I must have sunk $500-600 in the game. I loved it. But it was too predictable. I hated running drafts knowing exactly how the players were supposed to perform. It killed the realism for me because IRL you have no way of knowing that Darryl Strawberry would actually be very good but Danny Goodwin would totally bomb. But in DMB you draft guys in history knowing ahead of time if they are HoF players or not. And when you draft against the AI you can't help but kill it knowing when the AI picks Steve Swisher and leaves you with Carlton Fisk that you are pretty much set. In OOTP5 maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Fisk looks pretty good, but with the dynamics of the game you'll never know for sure until you actually play him. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

02-25-2004, 03:22 PM	#8
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	That is also what DMB is all about, IN GAME. OOTP has that ability and it is and will be improved(as it should) but OOTP allows you to create a baseball universe which is what it is all about. The two products, though having "some" similar features really cannot be compared fairly. I could give you instances where DMB has made some extremely screwy player moves, etc so it is also far from the holy grail of baseball sims. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

02-25-2004, 01:10 PM	#2
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	The OOTP sim engine is pretty strong. It isn't based on stats like the DMB engine is. It's totally ratings driven. The good thing is that this system allows for some variance in player performance for year to year. In fact, two players with identical ratings will often perform quite differently. This makes it challenging just as it would be for a real major league manager. While DMB may excel at replaying season from the past, OOTP excels at playing "what if" scenarios where you want the randomness of actual baseball.

02-25-2004, 02:03 PM	#5
Craig Scarborough All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 551	True, DMB excels at replicating the statistics for seasons you purchased. This allows you do what-if scenarios, but all of them are within the context of seasons already played. Therefore, you're always playing the game but have very little control on the "use" of individual players. I can't bring up a prospect and give him playing time unless he did so in real life. Also, I have a tremendous advantage that RL managers do not have - I know the guy's statistics for the year beforehand. For instance, let's talk about Pat Burrell. In DMB, you KNOW he's going to stink all year long. Larry Bowa didn't - and he hoped that putting him out there everyday, he would break out of the season long slump. The same thing happens in OOTP - and that's what makes it fun for me. You're creating your own history and you don't know how things are going to end up. You don't know if guys are playing above their heads and vice versa. Just my humble opinion, but it's why I like career-based simulations best, though I am a customer of both companies .

02-25-2004, 03:07 PM	#7
Argicee Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 26	All of the comments above are very legitimate. I enjoy both games, but for very different reasons, and the enjoyment I derive from each is very different. That said, though, I think there is at least one area of both games that can be directly compared and contrasted. That area is the in-game managerial play. By that, I am referring to all of the nuances that make managing a single game against the computer exciting: Setting the line-ups, selecting the starting pitchers, making all of the dozens of in-game decisions, reading the text that describes each play, etc. Both DMB and OOTP provide this aspect of game play. And in my opinion, OOTP is not even close to DMB in terms of realistically portraying the managerial aspects of single-game play. (Please, don't flame me - OOTP does so many other things that DMB doesn't. It's just that single game management is where I derive most of my pleasure in these games) The biggest deficiency in this regard, is the lack of pitch-by-pitch play in OOTP. Practically every decision must be made on an 0-0 count. When pitch-by-pitch was added to DMB several years ago, I was blown away by the difference it made in game play. I could go on about that difference, but I'll spare you. Anyway, until OOTP adds pitch-by-pitch, it's single game managerial experience will continue to be weak.

02-25-2004, 03:38 PM	#10
Argicee Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 26	Steve - I agree with your thoughtful reply. DMB is certainly not the Holy Grail, and OOTP does need to improve it's IN GAME play. I am encouraged that you think this improvement is needed in OOTP, too. What discussions have there been between you and Marcus regarding implementing a full pitch mode in OOTP?

02-25-2004, 04:25 PM	#11
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	I haven't spoken with Markus or Steve on this, but I can tell you that full pitch mode is probably several versions down the road. The complexities involved would require quite a bit of a change to the game engine and may even be beyond the resources of the current OOTP crew.

02-25-2004, 04:34 PM	#12
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Well, we've talked about it but currently it is not a high priority. Possibly something we will do down the road. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

02-25-2004, 04:38 PM	#13
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	The best feature I saw in DMB was its scheduler. If Marcus could somehow figure out how they do it. It lets you set how many games you play each team in any division, and makes a schedule that doesn't kill you with 45 consecutive days of games. It even allows doubleheaders. The DMB scheduler I think is even better than stickware. I also like the DMB allows you to program your pitching staff. You can program in lefty-left and righty-righty pitcher-batter combinations. I concede DMB has better gameplay, but I don't think it is light years better. I had DMB back when it didn't do pitch by pitch gameplay, and even when it got it I played it that way infrequently. Took too long to play a whole season that way. But except for subtle nuances, I think PbP is very similar between the two games. And both could stand some improvement from the AI decision making in gameplay. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

02-25-2004, 05:12 PM	#15
Argicee Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 26	Aadik - You're right. And as one who gets tremendous enjoyment from the in-game managerial aspects, it has been a disappointment to see this as such a low priority in OOTP. Markus has developed an unbelievable game, and its appeal is to the majority of players who place less significance on the in-game aspects. I'll have to be patient for OOTP to evolve or for someone to create a game that combines OOTP's depth with DMD's in-game strengths.

02-25-2004, 06:02 PM	#17
bbfan66 Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2	What an intelligent discussion. I can tell this board is well run. Thank you to all who responded. I had no idea this topic would create such interest. It is, however, interesting to discuss. In my initial encounters with OOTP, I am certainly impressed. I just did not want to get involved with a season without knowing whether or not OOTP's sim and in-game engine were at least comparable to that of DMB's. One thing that does frustrate me about DMB is when playing in a league against the computer, it is really frustrating keeping up with injuries, 25 man rosters, the DL, and all that other out-of-game stuff. It is definitely not fair to play a game against a team of 35-40 (which you need to keep on the computer managed teams to ensure players play enough) when you keep your own roster at 25. When it comes to DMB, I really love their projection disk though. I will probably play both games and am really looking forward to OOTP6.

02-25-2004, 07:47 PM	#18
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,506	As someone who has played both games, my take is that OOTP does everything better than DMB except play baseball. Actually playing through games (as opposed to simming them) is a much better experience with DMB. The play-by-play is better, the variety of plays is superior, and the game just feels more like baseball. So I stay with DMB, although I am currently addicted to OOTPs boxing game. But OOTP does everything else better than DMB. The career mode is great. Setting up and managing your seasons is easy, and you don't have to pay $20 or $30 apiece for them. The touches like the newspaper are very nice, and the ability to add user-supplied parks, photos, logos etc. really sets the game apart. I still give a slight edge to DMB, but it's a real study in contrasts, and it really depends on what you want. If you sim most of your games and just want believable and somewhat unpredictable results as opposed to a high level of accuracy, you'll probably prefer OOTP.

02-25-2004, 07:54 PM	#19
Steely Glint Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 430	DMB is a better sim. OOTP is a much better game. Apples and ornages. __________________ "His eyes had the steely glint of a hired gun."

02-25-2004, 07:56 PM	#20
Steely Glint Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 430	Oranges, even. __________________ "His eyes had the steely glint of a hired gun."