new triples system flawed

obaslg · 08-11-2003, 10:21 AM

I don't think this yet qualifies as an obsession of mine - I've just been trying to get to the bottom of it.

For those who don't know, triples were recently dramatically changed in the game. I haven't been able to find out exactly how. I also haven't been able to find out why, though I gather it has something to do with the disparity between triples and steals for individual players.

The upshot is that players' triples ratings are now apparently meaningless. In the stats, there are dramatic changes for individual players - players going from a history of 15 triples per year to 3, and vice versa.

I haven't been able to decipher exactly how triples are determined. In our league, we have a player with a 2 in triples, 6 in doubles, and B speed with 15 triples after averaging 2 per year for his career. Another with a 12 in triples and 5 in doubles and a B speed went from a career average of 14 triples to 2 this year. (Incidentally, the second player lost 2 rating points in triples at the end of the year.)

If the idea was to more closely align triples and steals, I think it has failed. The first player I mentioned was 10-6 stealing with his 15 triples. On the other side, the career leader in triples went from 15-20 triples per year to 3 last year, though he was 19-1 stealing.

So, for no reason that I can uncover, we have two major negative effects:
1) There is no way to predict triples from the ratings;
2) Players' triples stats look ridiculous in a career perspective, with sudden changes of +/- 10-15 triples per season.

I wish someone would explain this to me. More importantly, I would like it changed back, or some other real triples rating added.

Treches · 08-11-2003, 10:37 AM

Triple ratings have no impact in V5. Triples are determined by the batter's ability to hit and speed. I don't exactly know how the game goes for a triple, but the rating always seemed incoherent to me the way it was implemented in previous versions. An E-speed guy with brilliant talent in triples...

obaslg · 08-11-2003, 11:19 AM

I agree that a slow guy with a lot of triples makes little sense. However, from the steal numbers I've seen, that hasn't been fixed. I think the answer to that problem would be to correct the player generation system so that no one comes out with a big difference between TR rating and speed. (And roster makers should also align them.) Instead, we have something indecipherable and bizarre.

akw4572 · 08-11-2003, 11:24 AM

i would think the biggest way to effect triples is to change the numbers in the league totals factors. Try that obaslg, and run a test on your league and see if numbers don't drop.

Matteo · 08-11-2003, 11:54 AM

Why do we need a seperate rating for triples if it can be determined by speed, type of hitter (pull or spray) and maybe a little stealing ability.

The other thing that puzzles me is that a guy with A speed and A stealing ability gets as many steals as a D/A guy. To me, stealing ability is a subproduct from speed. Call stealing ability something like coordination, and stealing ability is acombination of speed and coordination.

To me it makes no sense having a rating for something that can be determined by weighting other existing ratings.

Henry · 08-11-2003, 12:38 PM

The "new" game engine Markus has proposed for Version 6 will make this argument moot. V5 did put more importance on speed rather than rating, so I'm not surprised of the results.

obaslg · 08-11-2003, 06:58 PM

I haven't seen specifics on the new engine - how will this be moot? And better yet, do you have a link for the details of the new system?

Steve Kuffrey · 08-11-2003, 07:05 PM

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=41389

Eric · 08-11-2003, 07:26 PM

Do people use the triples rating to make decisions on their lineups or pinch-hitters? I never sat around and debated on where a player plays based on his triples rating.

Maybe Markus can remove the rating and add a different rating such as 'clutch hitting'.

draven085 · 08-11-2003, 08:06 PM

I think a big problem with the triples rating issue is for historical gamers. Triples used to be more about power in the dead ball era. I would imagine that it is difficult to code so that the results for both the modern notion of a triples hitter and a deal ball era triples hitter come out accurate.

Killebrew · 08-11-2003, 09:01 PM

The new triples logic in OOTP5 was causing serious issues with A speed players all getting 20-30 triples each, but this issue was dealt with in the last patch. Last time I checked for it the triples stats they were looking good again. Last I heard (and others above seem to be confirming) the triples rating has no effect in OOTP5. If you want to judge the full hitting prowess of potential pinch hitters give more value to their speed rating.

obaslg · 08-11-2003, 09:41 PM

1) I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not talking about the numbers of triples overall, or the number the league leader hits. I'm just talking about the sudden change. When I look at career stats for players in my league, they look like: 2,2,3,2,1,3,2,15; or 13,12,14,12,2 - that's just stupid.
2) Actually, I do factor in triples - or I used to. And I'm not the only one I know. They don't matter often, but on the extremes they do. A player with a 14 rating (I had one) would hit about 16 triples a year under the old system - that's roughly equivalent to 12 homers, well worth consideration.
3) I couldn't tell anything from that basic post of Markus' about how triples will be completely different. Do you know something we don't, Henry?

Henry · 08-11-2003, 09:45 PM

The point is that Markus plans on revamping the rating system. That likely means much of what we know today won't be true in V6. It would make sense to express the wish that triples be some sort of combination between power and speed - with most of that result effective in older Eras.... but I believe Markus already knows this.

I was simply trying to point out that we know the triples area needs work - and Markus plans to revamp the rating system will at least give us something different in V6 - likely better than what we have now.

MTXperience · 08-11-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killebrew
Last I heard (and others above seem to be confirming) the triples rating has no effect in OOTP5. If you want to judge the full hitting prowess of potential pinch hitters give more value to their speed rating.

I imagine the Triples rating MAY still impact simulated Minor League stats (as it undoubtdly uses a stripped down engine). I haven't done any number crunching to see if this is so though...

Henry · 08-11-2003, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MTXperience
I imagine the Triples rating MAY still impact simulated Minor League stats (as it undoubtdly uses a stripped down engine

Not sure what you meant by this, but the minor league statistics are derived in the same way the major league stats are...

obaslg · 08-12-2003, 12:14 AM

I think a pretty good way to do it would be to have a singles rating, a homer rating, and an extra-base rating. Extra base hits would be doubles or triples, depending on speed (and stadiums and defense, obviously).

However it's done, I would prefer it not be hidden.

MTXperience · 08-12-2003, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
Not sure what you meant by this, but the minor league statistics are derived in the same way the major league stats are...

Ahh... I figured it used a slightly less detailed version of the sim engine in the same way a few other text sports games like CM do...

sporr · 08-12-2003, 01:17 PM

As the game engine gets better and more realistically sound, you're going to see some player stat differences from version to version. Personally, I'd rather have the stats be determined in an even more realistic way with new versions rather than maintaining old flaws just so player statistics are consistent from one year to the next.

ctorg · 08-12-2003, 03:10 PM

I've noticed the year-to-year disparity as well.

I think what would be best is to keep the "triples" rating, but to have it be determined for fictional players by the player's speed rating.

obaslg · 08-12-2003, 04:00 PM

We don't have any evidence that the current system is more realistic. Like I said, we have a guy who is 10-6 stealing this year with 15 triples (1 triple last year), while another is 19-1 stealing this year with 3 triples (20 last year).

08-11-2003, 10:21 AM	#1
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	new triples system flawed I don't think this yet qualifies as an obsession of mine - I've just been trying to get to the bottom of it. For those who don't know, triples were recently dramatically changed in the game. I haven't been able to find out exactly how. I also haven't been able to find out why, though I gather it has something to do with the disparity between triples and steals for individual players. The upshot is that players' triples ratings are now apparently meaningless. In the stats, there are dramatic changes for individual players - players going from a history of 15 triples per year to 3, and vice versa. I haven't been able to decipher exactly how triples are determined. In our league, we have a player with a 2 in triples, 6 in doubles, and B speed with 15 triples after averaging 2 per year for his career. Another with a 12 in triples and 5 in doubles and a B speed went from a career average of 14 triples to 2 this year. (Incidentally, the second player lost 2 rating points in triples at the end of the year.) If the idea was to more closely align triples and steals, I think it has failed. The first player I mentioned was 10-6 stealing with his 15 triples. On the other side, the career leader in triples went from 15-20 triples per year to 3 last year, though he was 19-1 stealing. So, for no reason that I can uncover, we have two major negative effects: 1) There is no way to predict triples from the ratings; 2) Players' triples stats look ridiculous in a career perspective, with sudden changes of +/- 10-15 triples per season. I wish someone would explain this to me. More importantly, I would like it changed back, or some other real triples rating added.

08-11-2003, 10:37 AM	#2
Treches Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Damned Hell Posts: 2,150	Triple ratings have no impact in V5. Triples are determined by the batter's ability to hit and speed. I don't exactly know how the game goes for a triple, but the rating always seemed incoherent to me the way it was implemented in previous versions. An E-speed guy with brilliant talent in triples... __________________ The Computer Baseball League

08-11-2003, 11:19 AM	#3
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I agree that a slow guy with a lot of triples makes little sense. However, from the steal numbers I've seen, that hasn't been fixed. I think the answer to that problem would be to correct the player generation system so that no one comes out with a big difference between TR rating and speed. (And roster makers should also align them.) Instead, we have something indecipherable and bizarre. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

08-11-2003, 11:54 AM	#5
Matteo Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 473	Why do we need a seperate rating for triples if it can be determined by speed, type of hitter (pull or spray) and maybe a little stealing ability. The other thing that puzzles me is that a guy with A speed and A stealing ability gets as many steals as a D/A guy. To me, stealing ability is a subproduct from speed. Call stealing ability something like coordination, and stealing ability is acombination of speed and coordination. To me it makes no sense having a rating for something that can be determined by weighting other existing ratings. __________________ ESPN The Show live chat during 2004 ALCS: Julie (Boston): Do you think Jeter does the fist pump everytime he disappoints a woman in bed? Or does he save it for when he's with A-Rod? Bill Simmons: Whoops - I didn't mean to post that. Really, I didn't.

08-11-2003, 06:58 PM	#7
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I haven't seen specifics on the new engine - how will this be moot? And better yet, do you have a link for the details of the new system? __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

08-11-2003, 11:24 AM	#4
akw4572 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,601	i would think the biggest way to effect triples is to change the numbers in the league totals factors. Try that obaslg, and run a test on your league and see if numbers don't drop.

08-11-2003, 12:38 PM	#6
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	The "new" game engine Markus has proposed for Version 6 will make this argument moot. V5 did put more importance on speed rather than rating, so I'm not surprised of the results.

08-11-2003, 07:05 PM	#8
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=41389 __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

08-11-2003, 07:26 PM	#9
Eric All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 1,234	Do people use the triples rating to make decisions on their lineups or pinch-hitters? I never sat around and debated on where a player plays based on his triples rating. Maybe Markus can remove the rating and add a different rating such as 'clutch hitting'.

08-11-2003, 08:06 PM	#10
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	I think a big problem with the triples rating issue is for historical gamers. Triples used to be more about power in the dead ball era. I would imagine that it is difficult to code so that the results for both the modern notion of a triples hitter and a deal ball era triples hitter come out accurate.

08-11-2003, 09:01 PM	#11
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	The new triples logic in OOTP5 was causing serious issues with A speed players all getting 20-30 triples each, but this issue was dealt with in the last patch. Last time I checked for it the triples stats they were looking good again. Last I heard (and others above seem to be confirming) the triples rating has no effect in OOTP5. If you want to judge the full hitting prowess of potential pinch hitters give more value to their speed rating.

08-11-2003, 09:41 PM	#12
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	1) I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not talking about the numbers of triples overall, or the number the league leader hits. I'm just talking about the sudden change. When I look at career stats for players in my league, they look like: 2,2,3,2,1,3,2,15; or 13,12,14,12,2 - that's just stupid. 2) Actually, I do factor in triples - or I used to. And I'm not the only one I know. They don't matter often, but on the extremes they do. A player with a 14 rating (I had one) would hit about 16 triples a year under the old system - that's roughly equivalent to 12 homers, well worth consideration. 3) I couldn't tell anything from that basic post of Markus' about how triples will be completely different. Do you know something we don't, Henry? __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

08-11-2003, 09:45 PM	#13
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	The point is that Markus plans on revamping the rating system. That likely means much of what we know today won't be true in V6. It would make sense to express the wish that triples be some sort of combination between power and speed - with most of that result effective in older Eras.... but I believe Markus already knows this. I was simply trying to point out that we know the triples area needs work - and Markus plans to revamp the rating system will at least give us something different in V6 - likely better than what we have now.

08-12-2003, 12:14 AM	#16
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I think a pretty good way to do it would be to have a singles rating, a homer rating, and an extra-base rating. Extra base hits would be doubles or triples, depending on speed (and stadiums and defense, obviously). However it's done, I would prefer it not be hidden. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

08-12-2003, 01:17 PM	#18
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	As the game engine gets better and more realistically sound, you're going to see some player stat differences from version to version. Personally, I'd rather have the stats be determined in an even more realistic way with new versions rather than maintaining old flaws just so player statistics are consistent from one year to the next.

08-12-2003, 03:10 PM	#19
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I've noticed the year-to-year disparity as well. I think what would be best is to keep the "triples" rating, but to have it be determined for fictional players by the player's speed rating. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

08-12-2003, 04:00 PM	#20
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	We don't have any evidence that the current system is more realistic. Like I said, we have a guy who is 10-6 stealing this year with 15 triples (1 triple last year), while another is 19-1 stealing this year with 3 triples (20 last year). __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.