Some things never seem to get fixed!

CubsManager · 09-21-2022, 07:51 PM

As much as I enjoy OOTP there are some basic flaws that never seem to get fixed and truly detract from the game. Free agency for example!

With some judicious trades and callups, my 2023 Cubs did far better than expected by winning the whole shebang. Though I tried to get rid of Marcus Stroman and his hefty $25 million salary early in the season, as it turns out, he had a career year by going 20 - 4 with a 3.08 ERA. Considering the pennant, his great salary, and his generally good morale, I thought he'd certainly waive his opt out option and make another $50 million over the next two years with a great team.

But no! Not only did Mr. Stroman exercise that option, but he signed with the Braves for a mere $17.5 million for four years after they didn't even make it out of the division series.

Look, I understand the AI has to cheat to some degree to keep up with a human player, but losing free agents to teams who ultimately pay them far less has been a consistent and unrealistic problem with OOTP.

Sure, some MLB players take a home team discount stay put, or they take less money to catch on with a winner. But the latter certainly isn't the case here, and for every player that provides that discount there are 20 that won't.

This really needs to be fixed because it vastly detracts from the game.

LansdowneSt · 09-21-2022, 08:28 PM

Stroman has a $21M player option for the 2024 season. So instead of taking $21M for 1 year, he became a free agent and signed a 4-year $70M deal with a contender? I'm not seeing the issue. Or was it a four-year deal at $4.375M per year for a total value of $17.5M?

Had you extended him in 2022 to take out the $21M option year and give him an opt out and two more $25M seasons?

What did you offer him in free agency that he turned down to join the Braves?

locuspc · 09-22-2022, 01:28 PM

It sounds to me like he overestimated his market value when he waived that option. Did you make him an offer in free agency or did he have to take what he could get? Players are generally pretty good about taking the higher value offer to stay on a winning team in my experience, but you have to actually make them the offer.

Cod · 09-22-2022, 04:34 PM

As LansdowneSt alluded to, we need all the details of Stroman's contract with the Braves. I'd like to know the years, option years (if available), AAV, total compensation, and any bonuses (Cy Young, etc.).

CubsManager · 09-22-2022, 05:43 PM

My mistake. Stroman actually went to the Mets, who didn't even make it past the wildcard game the previous season. His contract is nothing special, either - just $17.2 (not .5) a year for 4 years with the fourth year containing a vesting option. There are no other incentives.

As far as overestimating his value, he was asking for the same $25 million in free agency that he would've automatically received with the Cubs for the next two years. Talk about taking a risk and losing 8 million a year!

As far as offering him an extension, it doesn't make a lot of sense when there were essentially two years left on the contract and he was a very happy player. I didn't make him an offer in free agency because I still thought he was overvalued and the game notated that he'd be "very difficult" to sign.

My greater point is this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME in OOTPBB. Perhaps it's some sort of built in balancer, but I've been playing it since the beginning and the number of free agents who consistently sign with other teams for far less than what my team offered is a bit annoying.

As I described in the original post, there are times that makes sense, but most of the time it doesn't.

MathBandit · 09-22-2022, 08:56 PM

So...he signed a deal to make more money than he was originally going to make on the contract he opted out of, and you don't even know if he was offered 2x25 by anyone at the time he signed his deal with the Mets? It's not even clear that the Mets are a worse team than the Cubs in this story.

As to your point that it happens "ALL THE TIME", I can't say it happens to me often at all that am involved in negotiations with a player for X and they end up signing somewhere else for substantially less than X. Maybe you're playing hardball too much with players in negotiations which is why they say eff it and go elsewhere?

LansdowneSt · 09-22-2022, 09:11 PM

I'll still confused. This is the 2023 Cubs, no?

My in-game 2023 Stroman has a contract that matches real life. One Player option at $21M for 2024. Which, as great a year as he had in 2023, he'd certainly decline. But maybe this isn't the 2022 Standard game you are playing or you extended him at some point during the 2022-23 seasons and took out the $21M player option shown and replaced it with an opt-out before a remaining $50M guaranteed over two years?

locuspc · 09-22-2022, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubsManager

My mistake. Stroman actually went to the Mets, who didn't even make it past the wildcard game the previous season. His contract is nothing special, either - just $17.2 (not .5) a year for 4 years with the fourth year containing a vesting option. There are no other incentives.

As far as overestimating his value, he was asking for the same $25 million in free agency that he would've automatically received with the Cubs for the next two years. Talk about taking a risk and losing 8 million a year!

As far as offering him an extension, it doesn't make a lot of sense when there were essentially two years left on the contract and he was a very happy player. I didn't make him an offer in free agency because I still thought he was overvalued and the game notated that he'd be "very difficult" to sign.

My greater point is this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME in OOTPBB. Perhaps it's some sort of built in balancer, but I've been playing it since the beginning and the number of free agents who consistently sign with other teams for far less than what my team offered is a bit annoying.

As I described in the original post, there are times that makes sense, but most of the time it doesn't.

Yeah it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the game. It's not a built-in balancer or an AI cheat or anything of the sort. He just took the best offer that was available to him, which is exactly what he should do. You didn't make him an offer in free agency and you're complaining that the offer he took was worse than the offer you didn't make? This isn't a problem with OOTP, it's your own error. He can't sign a deal you don't offer him.

monkeyman576 · 09-22-2022, 09:57 PM

The Braves offered more years, and are a historically more stable franchise than the Cubs. Maybe he didn't like playing in the wind*shrug*.

locuspc · 09-22-2022, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

The Braves offered more years, and are a historically more stable franchise than the Cubs. Maybe he didn't like playing in the wind*shrug*.

The Braves offered more everything than the Cubs. The Cubs didn't make an offer.

LansdowneSt · 09-22-2022, 10:12 PM

I think he looked at the same contract page I screenshotted and thought the two $25M years were upcoming when they were past (2022 & 2023)... If he didn't extend him in the standard game and 2023 just concluded, there are no two $25M years upcoming...

BIG17EASY · 09-23-2022, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I think he looked at the same contract page I screenshotted and thought the two $25M years were upcoming when they were past (2022 & 2023)... If he didn't extend him in the standard game and 2023 just concluded, there are no two $25M years upcoming...

That page would've looked differently, though, if he was at the end of 2023 because 2022 wouldn't be listed as a remaining salary. It's possible depending on when he looked at that page that the 2023 salary was still there, as well as the $21M player option for 2024, but the salary for 2022 would not have been listed.

CubsManager · 09-23-2022, 02:31 PM

Sorry, but you're all dead wrong, and it's too typical on these forums which are generally populated by people who defend the game at all costs because they can't possibly admit they might've made a questionable purchase.

The vast majority of the answers here absurdly assume that, after Stroman's final two years with Cubs at or about 46 million, his career would abruptly end! But the truth is he'd clearly sign on with some team at age 34 for 3 to 4 years at 15 to 20 million a year.

And clearly, some of y'all can't do math. For arguments sake, let's say his subsequent Cubs contract is for three years at $17.2 million. That means, had Stroman stayed with the Cubs, he would made 12 million more over that five-year span.

So his move makes absolutely no sense, and it can't be justified, particularly based on his morale with the Cubs. This ongoing free agent problem detracts from the game because it virtually never happens in the real world.

And the person who said that the Boston, I mean Milwaukee, I mean Atlanta Braves are more "stable" than the Cubs is clearly making it up as they go along.

MathBandit · 09-23-2022, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubsManager

Sorry, but you're all dead wrong, and it's too typical on these forums which are generally populated by people who defend the game at all costs because they can't possibly admit they might've made a questionable purchase.

The vast majority of the answers here absurdly assume that, after Stroman's final two years with Cubs at or about 46 million, his career would abruptly end! But the truth is he'd clearly sign on with some team at age 34 for 3 to 4 years at 15 to 20 million a year.

And clearly, some of y'all can't do math. For arguments sake, let's say his subsequent Cubs contract is for three years at $17.2 million. That means, had Stroman stayed with the Cubs, he would made 12 million more over that five-year span.

So his move makes absolutely no sense, and it can't be justified, particularly based on his morale with the Cubs. This ongoing free agent problem detracts from the game because it virtually never happens in the real world.

And the person who said that the Boston, I mean Milwaukee, I mean Atlanta Braves are more "stable" than the Cubs is clearly making it up as they go along.

Given that you're the one who confused the teams by telling us the wrong story, and also seems to have managed to misread Stroman's contract into thinking there's a second year he turned down - maybe don't throw stones?

What happened in this case is you never made an offer and the Mets I mean Braves did. And he took theirs.

If what you are saying is that you often have the different scenario where players sign deals elsewhere that they won't sign with you, my guess is perhaps your negotiation skills aren't perfect and you alienate them by trying to hardball.

CubsManager · 09-23-2022, 03:13 PM

Whether I got it perfect or not is immaterial. The underlying issues are the same regardless of whether the Mets or Braves were the signing team, or whether Stroman's remaining contract with the Cubs was for 50 or 46 million. Those are minor details that don't nearly mitigate my very basic argument.

That's another too-typical facet of this board. With some notable exceptions, when you realize you're dead wrong, you have to kill the messenger to preserve your fragile egos.

And what does it take to get through to you that you DON'T have to offer a player an extension when they have two-years left on their contract! If that was the case, as is almost always the case with OOTP, the player comes to you! Stroman had a great year, he was making top money, his morale was great, and he was on STABLE pennant winning team.

I'll say it one more time. I DIDN'T want to resign Stroman because he wasn't worth it. But my good fortune in his poor decision making doesn't mean it's not a problem with free agency in the game that needs to be fixed.

LansdowneSt · 09-23-2022, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubsManager

whether Stroman's remaining contract with the Cubs was for 50 or 46 million. Those are minor details that don't nearly mitigate my very basic argument.

I'm not trying to argue, but the point I keep trying to get clarity on is - if you didn't extend him and your Cubs just won the WS at the end of 2023... he doesn't have $50M remaining and he doesn't have $46M remaining... he has $21M on a one-year player option remaining.

$21M on a one-year option for 2024 after THAT kind of season? No way he elects to exercise it.

Maybe this just isn't a good example for the larger point you want to make. The free agency market is imperfect. I didn't think Correa would take a one-year deal. Or Freeman wouldn't be a Brave. Or Conforto wouldn't be making a dime. It happens - and the deal Stroman signed doesn't even sound that bad relative to the $21M that remained on the Cubs deal he could have opted in on.

BIG17EASY · 09-23-2022, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubsManager

And what does it take to get through to you that you DON'T have to offer a player an extension when they have two-years left on their contract!

Sorry to be blunt, but what does it take to get through to you that he didn't have two years remaining on his contract? There are multiple replies in this thread explaining how Stroman only had the option year remaining.

damientheomen3 · 09-23-2022, 03:46 PM

Seems like you're really doubling down on the thought that he should have taken the 2 yr $50 million opt-in rather than signing the 4 yr $70 million deal he did (and confusing the point to multiple people by putting the AAV next to the contract length rather than the total value) when that's already been explained away by the potential logic that he overestimated what he could get on the open market and had to settle for less than he thought (which I recognize is also applying human logic to a string of code but there are mechanisms in place in the game to kind of simulate that). An example that tracks here is in the NBA a couple seasons ago, Dennis Schroder turned down a $100+ extension offer from the Lakers thinking he'd get more on the open market, tanked in the playoffs and ended up signing with the Celtics for like $3 million. This absolutely happens in real life and if your solution is just 'then he should have opted in to the original deal' then you're not arguing in good faith or presenting a real solution imo.

Over the years there have been plenty of people who are disagreed with on these boards who cry homerism is the reason for it. It seems to be happening more than ever and with less justification than ever. I don't post here often but have been reading threads pretty frequently, largely because the people that jump to the 'you don't think I'm right so you're just another OOTP homer' option are entertaining to me. YMMV

And before you call me another OOTP homer, I haven't bought the game since 21, haven't bought at more than $10 since 19, and play about 10-15 hours a year of 17 because I play a very specific way that doesn't really work with more modern OOTPs. Imo the negative reputation of the board is at times justified but there aren't any examples of that in this thread, it just seems like you want players to always sign with whoever offers them the most money no matter what and also to have the pre-cognition to opt into a contract rather than test their value if said test ends up being a failure.

CubsManager · 09-23-2022, 03:54 PM

Lansd,

Given the evidence you cite, you're dead on. The problem is, I can't go back to my previous quick start point to look at what OOTP did with Stroman's contract at that point. In my defense, I frequently go over the salary list to determine who's contract needs to be extended, and if I forget a possibility, any regular player will email the GM.

But even if your more than reasonable contention is correct, that makes Stroman one year younger for contract negotiation purposes, and any reasonable player with a world champion team would stick with them for 21 million and ask for an extension after that.

GTAltman · 09-23-2022, 04:04 PM

Here’s what I see…
Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong.

He let 2 for 50MM go so he could get 4 for 68.4MM
Maybe he thinks he wouldn’t get another contract after year 2, and actually made 18MM more - even if it’s below the value of 25 AAV.

Either way, he bought himself 4 years under contract vs staying out for 2.

09-21-2022, 07:51 PM	#1
CubsManager Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 54	Some things never seem to get fixed! As much as I enjoy OOTP there are some basic flaws that never seem to get fixed and truly detract from the game. Free agency for example! With some judicious trades and callups, my 2023 Cubs did far better than expected by winning the whole shebang. Though I tried to get rid of Marcus Stroman and his hefty $25 million salary early in the season, as it turns out, he had a career year by going 20 - 4 with a 3.08 ERA. Considering the pennant, his great salary, and his generally good morale, I thought he'd certainly waive his opt out option and make another $50 million over the next two years with a great team. But no! Not only did Mr. Stroman exercise that option, but he signed with the Braves for a mere $17.5 million for four years after they didn't even make it out of the division series. Look, I understand the AI has to cheat to some degree to keep up with a human player, but losing free agents to teams who ultimately pay them far less has been a consistent and unrealistic problem with OOTP. Sure, some MLB players take a home team discount stay put, or they take less money to catch on with a winner. But the latter certainly isn't the case here, and for every player that provides that discount there are 20 that won't. This really needs to be fixed because it vastly detracts from the game.

09-21-2022, 08:28 PM	#2
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 8,322	Stroman has a $21M player option for the 2024 season. So instead of taking $21M for 1 year, he became a free agent and signed a 4-year $70M deal with a contender? I'm not seeing the issue. Or was it a four-year deal at $4.375M per year for a total value of $17.5M? Had you extended him in 2022 to take out the $21M option year and give him an opt out and two more $25M seasons? What did you offer him in free agency that he turned down to join the Braves? __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

09-22-2022, 09:11 PM	#7
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 8,322	I'll still confused. This is the 2023 Cubs, no? My in-game 2023 Stroman has a contract that matches real life. One Player option at $21M for 2024. Which, as great a year as he had in 2023, he'd certainly decline. But maybe this isn't the 2022 Standard game you are playing or you extended him at some point during the 2022-23 seasons and took out the $21M player option shown and replaced it with an opt-out before a remaining $50M guaranteed over two years? Attached Images __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

09-22-2022, 10:12 PM	#11
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 8,322	I think he looked at the same contract page I screenshotted and thought the two $25M years were upcoming when they were past (2022 & 2023)... If he didn't extend him in the standard game and 2023 just concluded, there are no two $25M years upcoming... __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

09-23-2022, 03:13 PM	#15
CubsManager Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 54	Whether I got it perfect or not is immaterial. The underlying issues are the same regardless of whether the Mets or Braves were the signing team, or whether Stroman's remaining contract with the Cubs was for 50 or 46 million. Those are minor details that don't nearly mitigate my very basic argument. That's another too-typical facet of this board. With some notable exceptions, when you realize you're dead wrong, you have to kill the messenger to preserve your fragile egos. And what does it take to get through to you that you DON'T have to offer a player an extension when they have two-years left on their contract! If that was the case, as is almost always the case with OOTP, the player comes to you! Stroman had a great year, he was making top money, his morale was great, and he was on STABLE pennant winning team. I'll say it one more time. I DIDN'T want to resign Stroman because he wasn't worth it. But my good fortune in his poor decision making doesn't mean it's not a problem with free agency in the game that needs to be fixed. Last edited by CubsManager; 09-23-2022 at 03:15 PM.

09-22-2022, 01:28 PM	#3
locuspc Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 349	It sounds to me like he overestimated his market value when he waived that option. Did you make him an offer in free agency or did he have to take what he could get? Players are generally pretty good about taking the higher value offer to stay on a winning team in my experience, but you have to actually make them the offer.

09-22-2022, 04:34 PM	#4
Cod All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 1,180	As LansdowneSt alluded to, we need all the details of Stroman's contract with the Braves. I'd like to know the years, option years (if available), AAV, total compensation, and any bonuses (Cy Young, etc.).

09-22-2022, 05:43 PM	#5
CubsManager Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 54	My mistake. Stroman actually went to the Mets, who didn't even make it past the wildcard game the previous season. His contract is nothing special, either - just $17.2 (not .5) a year for 4 years with the fourth year containing a vesting option. There are no other incentives. As far as overestimating his value, he was asking for the same $25 million in free agency that he would've automatically received with the Cubs for the next two years. Talk about taking a risk and losing 8 million a year! As far as offering him an extension, it doesn't make a lot of sense when there were essentially two years left on the contract and he was a very happy player. I didn't make him an offer in free agency because I still thought he was overvalued and the game notated that he'd be "very difficult" to sign. My greater point is this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME in OOTPBB. Perhaps it's some sort of built in balancer, but I've been playing it since the beginning and the number of free agents who consistently sign with other teams for far less than what my team offered is a bit annoying. As I described in the original post, there are times that makes sense, but most of the time it doesn't.

09-22-2022, 08:56 PM	#6
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,448	So...he signed a deal to make more money than he was originally going to make on the contract he opted out of, and you don't even know if he was offered 2x25 by anyone at the time he signed his deal with the Mets? It's not even clear that the Mets are a worse team than the Cubs in this story. As to your point that it happens "ALL THE TIME", I can't say it happens to me often at all that am involved in negotiations with a player for X and they end up signing somewhere else for substantially less than X. Maybe you're playing hardball too much with players in negotiations which is why they say eff it and go elsewhere?

09-22-2022, 09:57 PM	#9
monkeyman576 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,692	The Braves offered more years, and are a historically more stable franchise than the Cubs. Maybe he didn't like playing in the windshrug.

09-23-2022, 02:31 PM	#13
CubsManager Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 54	Sorry, but you're all dead wrong, and it's too typical on these forums which are generally populated by people who defend the game at all costs because they can't possibly admit they might've made a questionable purchase. The vast majority of the answers here absurdly assume that, after Stroman's final two years with Cubs at or about 46 million, his career would abruptly end! But the truth is he'd clearly sign on with some team at age 34 for 3 to 4 years at 15 to 20 million a year. And clearly, some of y'all can't do math. For arguments sake, let's say his subsequent Cubs contract is for three years at $17.2 million. That means, had Stroman stayed with the Cubs, he would made 12 million more over that five-year span. So his move makes absolutely no sense, and it can't be justified, particularly based on his morale with the Cubs. This ongoing free agent problem detracts from the game because it virtually never happens in the real world. And the person who said that the Boston, I mean Milwaukee, I mean Atlanta Braves are more "stable" than the Cubs is clearly making it up as they go along.

09-23-2022, 03:54 PM	#19
CubsManager Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 54	Lansd, Given the evidence you cite, you're dead on. The problem is, I can't go back to my previous quick start point to look at what OOTP did with Stroman's contract at that point. In my defense, I frequently go over the salary list to determine who's contract needs to be extended, and if I forget a possibility, any regular player will email the GM. But even if your more than reasonable contention is correct, that makes Stroman one year younger for contract negotiation purposes, and any reasonable player with a world champion team would stick with them for 21 million and ask for an extension after that.

09-23-2022, 04:04 PM	#20
GTAltman Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: South Carolina Posts: 352	Here’s what I see… Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong. He let 2 for 50MM go so he could get 4 for 68.4MM Maybe he thinks he wouldn’t get another contract after year 2, and actually made 18MM more - even if it’s below the value of 25 AAV. Either way, he bought himself 4 years under contract vs staying out for 2. __________________ PBAL Commissioner http://statsplus.net/PBAL