Trade question - Team keeps asking for additional players

[rink23]

I am playing the 2023 season of the St. Louis Cardinals and am trying to complete a deal with the Angels sending starting pitcher Michael Wacha for a middling minor-league outfielder.
The Angels GM seems interested and responded with an email saying "However, if you add any of the following players, we'd have a deal:"
So I added one of the players.
Got another email saying, "However, if you add any of the following players, we'd have a deal."
If that's one of the additional players he wants, I give it to him, why doesn't it close the deal.
This is something I have seen before while playing OOTP over the years. There have been times I have gotten five players deep in a deal and finally just forced the trade.

[Bobfather]

Maybe the AI can only ask for 1 player at a time. You could try the make it work button from the original trade. As a rule I pull my offer if the AI needs to think about it. Only bad things happen.

[MathBandit]

I've always rationalized it as me checking my phone to see an email/text from the other GM saying "We could do that deal if you added in Joey Bagodonuts", and then when I respond either later that day or the next morning they say "Oh, hey, since then we actually did XYZ so we don't need Bagodonuts as much anymore and so would need a bit more."

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I've always rationalized it as me checking my phone to see an email/text from the other GM saying "We could do that deal if you added in Joey Bagodonuts", and then when I respond either later that day or the next morning they say "Oh, hey, since then we actually did XYZ so we don't need Bagodonuts as much anymore and so would need a bit more."

You shouldn't have to rationalize anything. The system within the game should be refined.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

You shouldn't have to rationalize anything. The system within the game should be refined.

But to me it *is* refined. There's no issue there to me.

It DOES happen all the time in my online league that I will be in trade discussions with someone and one of us will throw out a possible name, then by the time the other person responds (even if it's later that day) the situation has changed in some way.

[LansdowneSt]

To be fair, in the first email he said "probably"...

[Sweed]

The problem comes down to how the email is worded. Some thoughts on possible fixes coming later in the post.

I think the AI is always re-evaluating the deal with each offer, as is should. Things can change.

In any case when going through emails, dealing with the AI, and you hit the "respond to message" you are in an ongoing negotiation. IE hit respond, give one of the players asked for, and if the AI accepts it will be instant. If the AI responds "submit" your offer then, something has changed and the AI no longer thinks this is a done deal and you are in an ongoing negotiation.

When the AI asks you to resubmit, not only has the "done deal" gone away, there's also a good chance you're going to be rejected. With that in mind there is nothing stopping your from adding another name from the "acceptable player" list the AI provided. Well, other than "you said this was a done deal and now you're asking for more! "

The problem comes in the wording of the email which, IMHO, could be better. IE in one place it says "I'd probably accept it" but follows with "add any of the following and we'd have a deal". Which is it?

Possible solutions?

1. Get rid of the "done deal" message and change the wording of the email.
Change the wording in the email to something more like "I am interested in any of the following players to try to complete a deal". Now you hit "respond" without expectation of it being a "done deal". The AI accepts one of the players? Great. The AI doesn't accept? You know you're in a negotiation.

2. Keep the current "done deal" email that would only be sent if one of those players will complete the deal. I think this would result in new coding being needed to lock the AI in. IOW I think, as mentioned earlier, that the AI is always re-revaluating and considers each deal in real time(a good thing that shouldn't be removed). In this case, I think, the AI should need an immediate response to complete a "done deal", and not be "locked in" for 14 days (or whatever the normal timeframe is). IE "Add any of the following players and we have a deal but, I need an immediate response."

3. Combo of 1 and 2. IE have two possible messages from the AI. If you get the "done deal" message you are set if you respond immediately. If you get the "interested" message nothing is guaranteed.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The problem comes down to how the email is worded. Some thoughts on possible fixes coming later in the post.

I think the AI is always re-evaluating the deal with each offer, as is should. Things can change.

In any case when going through emails, dealing with the AI, and you hit the "respond to message" you are in an ongoing negotiation. IE hit respond, give one of the players asked for, and if the AI accepts it will be instant. If the AI responds "submit" your offer then, something has changed and the AI no longer thinks this is a done deal and you are in an ongoing negotiation.

When the AI asks you to resubmit, not only has the "done deal" gone away, there's also a good chance you're going to be rejected. With that in mind there is nothing stopping your from adding another name from the "acceptable player" list the AI provided. Well, other than "you said this was a done deal and now you're asking for more! "

The problem comes in the wording of the email which, IMHO, could be better. IE in one place it says "I'd probably accept it" but follows with "add any of the following and we'd have a deal". Which is it?

Possible solutions?

1. Get rid of the "done deal" message and change the wording of the email.
Change the wording in the email to something more like "I am interested in any of the following players to try to complete a deal". Now you hit "respond" without expectation of it being a "done deal". The AI accepts one of the players? Great. The AI doesn't accept? You know you're in a negotiation.

2. Keep the current "done deal" email that would only be sent if one of those players will complete the deal. I think this would result in new coding being needed to lock the AI in. IOW I think, as mentioned earlier, that the AI is always re-revaluating and considers each deal in real time(a good thing that shouldn't be removed). In this case, I think, the AI should need an immediate response to complete a "done deal", and not be "locked in" for 14 days (or whatever the normal timeframe is). IE "Add any of the following players and we have a deal but, I need an immediate response."

3. Combo of 1 and 2. IE have two possible messages from the AI. If you get the "done deal" message you are set if you respond immediately. If you get the "interested" message nothing is guaranteed.

Right...this is what I am talking about when I use the word "refinement". It just needs some tweaking.

[Bobfather]

Why is it that this complaint only comes up in traded but not in free agency? It is basically the same type of negotiations?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Bobfather

Why is it that this complaint only comes up in traded but not in free agency? It is basically the same type of negotiations?

There are more pieces to the puzzle?

In a trade if the AI says a 2b they want will complete the deal but, in the mean time the AI team acquires a 2b or, one in their organization has a development boost. The AI now no longer has a need for 2b.

You offer a FA $x and he responds "it will take $x+" and you agree I'm not seeing what would make said player "change his mind"? Sure, in FA he won't sign immediately as he awaits more offers but, if your offer is still top after a period of time you'll get him. At least that is my experience.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by Sweed

There are more pieces to the puzzle?

In a trade if the AI says a 2b they want will complete the deal but, in the mean time the AI team acquires a 2b or, one in their organization has a development boost. The AI now no longer has a need for 2b.

You offer a FA $x and he responds "it will take $x+" and you agree I'm not seeing what would make said player "change his mind"? Sure, in FA he won't sign immediately as he awaits more offers but, if your offer is still top after a period of time you'll get him. At least that is my experience.

The "probably" in the first email is the same as "Send it and I'll give you an answer in a few days" when you negotiate trades, no? Where the sure thing is kinda the same as "Submit and it's a done deal" in those same discuss trade windows. That's how I read it. The "probably" email came first - and it didn't stick. That seemed like the game working properly.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

The "probably" in the first email is the same as "Send it and I'll give you an answer in a few days" when you negotiate trades, no? Where the sure thing is kinda the same as "Submit and it's a done deal" in those same discuss trade windows. That's how I read it. The "probably" email came first - and it didn't stick. That seemed like the game working properly.

Except the "probably" email, actually both emails, in the next paragraph, also say "add any of the following players and we'd have a deal". IE "add more and I'll probably accept" and "However if you'd add any of the following players we'd have a deal".

I don't really have a problem with it. I look it as circumstances have changed. However I can see how users read "we'd have a deal", include one of the listed players, and don't have a deal. Rewording, as per my suggestion in earlier post , so something more along the lines of "here are some players I am interested in" rather than saying one of these listed players will result in a deal.

In any case not my issue, just trying to help.

[oldfatbaldguy]

I think it's just the AI GM being a jerk. They have visible ratings -- "trade frequency" and "trade aggressiveness," right? Maybe there's a hidden "likes to move the goal posts" rating. When I'm a few seasons deep in a fictional league I feel like I have histories with these clumps of code, and sometimes when a trade offer comes in I think, "Oh, it's that asshole."

[Bobfather]

Originally Posted by Sweed

There are more pieces to the puzzle?

In a trade if the AI says a 2b they want will complete the deal but, in the mean time the AI team acquires a 2b or, one in their organization has a development boost. The AI now no longer has a need for 2b.

You offer a FA $x and he responds "it will take $x+" and you agree I'm not seeing what would make said player "change his mind"? Sure, in FA he won't sign immediately as he awaits more offers but, if your offer is still top after a period of time you'll get him. At least that is my experience.

What I meant was, they are both negotiations. in both cases the AI will say something like, sounds good submit it and I'll get back to you in a few days. Then with a free agent you get team B is now offering this will you offer that? I think in the trade scenario the other team is fielding offers from other teams and as the other teams make offers, you are then asked to increase yours. To the OP, did you initiate the trade, or did the AI, was the player on the trading block, or was it just a player you randomly wanted? If it was a random player. (random in this case meaning an average player that meets a particular need your team has ) in that case, I would not see a negotiation happening, But if it is a trading block or future FA, etc then I could see multiple teams bidding for that player. OK, I just vomited up a word salad, so I hope that this made some sense to someone.

[Pelican]

This scenario seems to contrast with the "make this work" button on the trade screen. In that instance, the AI GM will list players who could be added to seal the deal. Invariably that list includes the best players on the other team; but it may also include some minor league prospects and suspects.

To the point here, if you agree to any one of the players suggested, the deal will then close. I have never seen that path fail. Which makes me wonder how the situation described by the OP is different. I suppose in the background the AI could be working other deals. Nothing is done until the AI agrees.

[aks62]

Originally Posted by Pelican

This scenario seems to contrast with the "make this work" button on the trade screen. In that instance, the AI GM will list players who could be added to seal the deal. Invariably that list includes the best players on the other team; but it may also include some minor league prospects and suspects.

To the point here, if you agree to any one of the players suggested, the deal will then close. I have never seen that path fail. Which makes me wonder how the situation described by the OP is different. I suppose in the background the AI could be working other deals. Nothing is done until the AI agrees.

I have had the "make this work" button fail on me in OOTP 23 on occasion, though. I'll add a player listed and it'll still say they want to think about it, which has never happened to me in prior versions of the game. Anyone else also encounter this?