OPS or SLG

kq76 · 06-12-2022, 12:14 PM

While playing out games I like to glance at the batting/pitching widgets before each PA and it drives me nuts that OPS is listed there instead of SLG. OPS is such a garbage stat. I understand, it has its purpose for some (it's simple and easy), but it can be so misleading and the combination of OBP and SLG tells you so much more than OPS. And OBP is already there so why not have SLG too?

For awhile I thought, I'm probably the only one super annoyed by this, but maybe not. Let's see.

jbergey22 · 06-12-2022, 12:31 PM

I am just not understanding your logic. OPS is on base + slugging. If OPS is a "garbage" stat, why would care about the 2 metrics that make up OPS?

Bluenoser · 06-12-2022, 12:32 PM

You mean you'd rather it looked like this? Just create a custom player view.
_

kq76 · 06-12-2022, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I am just not understanding your logic. OPS is on base + slugging. If OPS is a "garbage" stat, why would care about the 2 metrics that make up OPS?

Because OPS severely overvalues SLG / undervalues OBP. People have been arguing for like 20 years now that it should never have been thought of.

It's like having 2 foods that are great on their own, but when you mix them together into a paste they taste terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You mean you'd rather it looked like this? Just create a custom player view.
_

LOL! I can't believe I never thought of hovering over the batter like that. I knew those popups existed, but I always just ignored them / found them annoying.

I actually tried, for awhile, to figure out a way to customize the corner widgets without taking a closer look at the hover popups. Too often others see things I should. Thank you!

Pelican · 06-12-2022, 01:32 PM

I agree with you to this extent. OPS blurs the distinction between slugging and on-base talent, at least for guys you don’t know. Now, I don’t ever deal with created players, so I’m generally familiar with what the components of a .950 are likely to be. Ricky Henderson won’t look like Joey Gallo.

But I’m with you in working on a lineup, for example. I really like a high OBP and good eye rating in my leadoff guy. I reject the idea of leading off a slugger, unless he has a high OBP too, and/or you have a whole team of sluggers. In setting the lineup, breaking out OBP versus SLG is useful.

What baffles me, particularly in smaller sample sizes, is that dudes with great eye ratings can have an anemic OBP, and guys with high slugging ratings can have a low SLG. At least, in terms of the validity of OPS, a guy who is tanking on OBP is likely tanking on SLG as well. And yes, as a Phils fan, Rhys Hoskins is the exception that proves what I just said. LOL.

kq76 · 06-12-2022, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelican

What baffles me, particularly in smaller sample sizes, is that dudes with great eye ratings can have an anemic OBP, and guys with high slugging ratings can have a low SLG. At least, in terms of the validity of OPS, a guy who is tanking on OBP is likely tanking on SLG as well. And yes, as a Phils fan, Rhys Hoskins is the exception that proves what I just said. LOL.

Yeah, that's an interesting point and makes me realize that the screen capture I showed wasn't the best example. Clearly Johan is playing great. The one I should have shown was Dylan Farmer, a player I expect to have great SLG, but, other than an unexpected great BA, he's started off very slow in SLG. So I keep looking at the widget hoping to see his SLG rise. And, yeah, I can see that by doing the subtraction in my head, but I wish I didn't have to. I know what the average OBP and SLG should be in this league (.340 and .435) and I wish I could just compare what I see to those #s instead of having to do the mental math first.

MathBandit · 06-12-2022, 04:17 PM

I mean, learning that OPS is flawed is what, grade 7 maths? You can't just take two fractions with different denominators and add them together without converting one or both to have the same denominator.

It's especially problematic in this context since outside of the context of a specific PA while OPS does somehow still work as a reasonable measure of a player's value (despite the flawed maths), in the context of a specific game situation knowing a player has a .750 OPS tells you just about nothing about what the right approach is if there's a runner on 2nd.

jimmysthebestcop · 06-12-2022, 08:39 PM

neither WRC+ or woba

edit...

● If you’re thinking about using OPS+, use wRC+ instead. wRC+ is based off of wOBA and is regarded as a more accurate depiction of a player’s offensive value. They will typically offer similar conclusions, but wRC+ is superior and no more difficult to interpret or find.

uruguru · 06-12-2022, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I am just not understanding your logic. OPS is on base + slugging. If OPS is a "garbage" stat, why would care about the 2 metrics that make up OPS?

Home Runs and Walks are good metrics, yet Home Runs + Walks is definitely a garbage stat.

If you already show OBP, then you should show SLG instead of OPS because OPS is just a generalized ranking stat, like WAR. It's good for deciding who wins the MVP or Batter of the Month, but not much else.

OBP and SLG tell you something real about how the player performs when batting. You want high-OBP guys at the top of your lineup and high SLG guys behind them. You can't make that decision with a generalized ranking stat like OPS.

jcard · 06-12-2022, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

neither WRC+ or woba

edit...

● If youÂ’re thinking about using OPS+, use wRC+ instead. wRC+ is based off of wOBA and is regarded as a more accurate depiction of a playerÂ’s offensive value. They will typically offer similar conclusions, but wRC+ is superior and no more difficult to interpret or find.

Does OOTP control for park and league environment when calculating wRC+? Whereas wRC is not park and league adjusted, wRC+ does account for these factors. When comparing wOPS+ to wRC+ from an OOTP sim, however, the players whose home stadium favors hitters have the largest difference in favor of wRC+ (and vice versa for players from pitching-friendly home parks).

BarneyRubble · 06-13-2022, 11:44 AM

OBP is shown, therefore OPS is useless under the circumstances. OBP and SLG tell me VERY specific things about a player. OPS tells me what I get when I add OBP and SLG. Ironically, the stats at the bottom show SLG.

BarneyRubble · 06-13-2022, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I am just not understanding your logic. OPS is on base + slugging. If OPS is a "garbage" stat, why would care about the 2 metrics that make up OPS?

Because a 420/380 hitter is not the same as a 300/500 hitter. Both are 800 OPS, but they are VASTLY different players. If you tell a manager the guy is 800 OPS, he's going to look at you funny. If you work for him, you'll probably get fired.

md40022 · 06-13-2022, 12:30 PM

I personally have no use for OPS. Like someone already said on this thread, OPS seems like it would be a valuable thing for MVP voting or picking All-Stars maybe, but when it comes to being a stat to tell you about a player, it's very vague when used by itself. A little slap hitting, walk taking scrappy guy and a big "all or nothing" strikeout or homer guy could have an identical OPS since one of them puts up OBP and the other puts up SLG, but at the end of the day they couldn't be any farther from being the same type of player. All of the value in OPS, at least IMO, is just as an overall barometer. Personally,I could do without it.

But here's the other thing that bugs me about it..... It is literally just the sum of OBP and SLG. Meaning anyone with half a brain can calculate it within a second or two. So, to post it on the TV screen seems like a waste to me since I can figure it out on my own if I really want it. Seems like you could fill that screen space with a different stat, because anyone who really wants OPS can get it with 2 seconds worth of addition. It's like posting hits allowed by a pitcher, walks issued by a pitcher, and then total guys put on base by a pitcher. It's kind of overkill. I can add those 2 numbers together on my own if need be. Fill that slot in the screen with something different.

BBGiovanni · 06-13-2022, 12:36 PM

OPS is what it is, but I never understand these listings that substitute it for SLG and show it with AVG and OBP. If there's room for 3 batter stats, make them AVG/OBP/SLG.And that's not just OOTP, I'm always surprised and irritated when I see it listed that way.

BarneyRubble · 06-13-2022, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

OPS is what it is, but I never understand these listings that substitute it for SLG and show it with AVG and OBP. If there's room for 3 batter stats, make them AVG/OBP/SLG.And that's not just OOTP, I'm always surprised and irritated when I see it listed that way.

It truly does boggle the mind.

EDIT: What's sad is the poll results.

PocketsAintFull · 06-13-2022, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarneyRubble

EDIT: What's sad is the poll results.

Yeah, it's shocking that a general tone of 'OPS IS GARBAGE AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG' hasn't won over the vote

BarneyRubble · 06-13-2022, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketsAintFull

Yeah, it's shocking that a general tone of 'OPS IS GARBAGE AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG' hasn't won over the vote

I'm not shocked at all.

jbergey22 · 06-13-2022, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarneyRubble

Because a 420/380 hitter is not the same as a 300/500 hitter. Both are 800 OPS, but they are VASTLY different players. If you tell a manager the guy is 800 OPS, he's going to look at you funny. If you work for him, you'll probably get fired.

They are all garbage stats without context.

MathBandit · 06-13-2022, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketsAintFull

Yeah, it's shocking that a general tone of 'OPS IS GARBAGE AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG' hasn't won over the vote

I mean in this case, yeah? OPS tells you very little in the context of a plate appearance.

kq76 · 06-13-2022, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You mean you'd rather it looked like this? Just create a custom player view.
_

So how do you customize this? I've searched and searched, but can't find it. Is it as simple as creating a specially named view on the normal screen tables? The only thing I've found is OOTP refers to it as the player popup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketsAintFull

Yeah, it's shocking that a general tone of 'OPS IS GARBAGE AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG' hasn't won over the vote

My apologies, I was frustrated. I wasn't really hoping/thinking that this poll might get it changed. I just wanted to know if I was crazy for being so agitated by it. I'm better now after what bluenoser showed me.

OPS along with what I want to see doesn't bother me. I can just ignore it. Heck, there was a time I wasn't nearly so bothered by it. Although as soon as GPA came out I wished it was the one gaining traction. But now that it's so ubiquitous and it's shown like, "here, this tells you all that you need to know" that it bugs me.

I'm also annoyed, however, by BA being called an average when in my mind it's clearly not. :P

View Poll Results: Would you rather have SLG listed where OPS is in the image?
Yes, show SLG	20	46.51%
No, show OPS	23	53.49%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

06-12-2022, 12:14 PM	#1
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,770	OPS or SLG While playing out games I like to glance at the batting/pitching widgets before each PA and it drives me nuts that OPS is listed there instead of SLG. OPS is such a garbage stat. I understand, it has its purpose for some (it's simple and easy), but it can be so misleading and the combination of OBP and SLG tells you so much more than OPS. And OBP is already there so why not have SLG too? For awhile I thought, I'm probably the only one super annoyed by this, but maybe not. Let's see. Attached Images __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

06-12-2022, 12:32 PM	#3
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,209	You mean you'd rather it looked like this? Just create a custom player view. _ Attached Images Last edited by Bluenoser; 06-12-2022 at 12:46 PM.

06-12-2022, 08:39 PM	#8
jimmysthebestcop Banned Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 1,727 Infractions: 0/2 (5)	neither WRC+ or woba edit... ● If you’re thinking about using OPS+, use wRC+ instead. wRC+ is based off of wOBA and is regarded as a more accurate depiction of a player’s offensive value. They will typically offer similar conclusions, but wRC+ is superior and no more difficult to interpret or find. Last edited by jimmysthebestcop; 06-12-2022 at 08:42 PM.

06-13-2022, 12:30 PM	#13
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 740 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I personally have no use for OPS. Like someone already said on this thread, OPS seems like it would be a valuable thing for MVP voting or picking All-Stars maybe, but when it comes to being a stat to tell you about a player, it's very vague when used by itself. A little slap hitting, walk taking scrappy guy and a big "all or nothing" strikeout or homer guy could have an identical OPS since one of them puts up OBP and the other puts up SLG, but at the end of the day they couldn't be any farther from being the same type of player. All of the value in OPS, at least IMO, is just as an overall barometer. Personally,I could do without it. But here's the other thing that bugs me about it..... It is literally just the sum of OBP and SLG. Meaning anyone with half a brain can calculate it within a second or two. So, to post it on the TV screen seems like a waste to me since I can figure it out on my own if I really want it. Seems like you could fill that screen space with a different stat, because anyone who really wants OPS can get it with 2 seconds worth of addition. It's like posting hits allowed by a pitcher, walks issued by a pitcher, and then total guys put on base by a pitcher. It's kind of overkill. I can add those 2 numbers together on my own if need be. Fill that slot in the screen with something different. Last edited by md40022; 06-13-2022 at 12:31 PM.

06-12-2022, 12:31 PM	#2
jbergey22 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,481	I am just not understanding your logic. OPS is on base + slugging. If OPS is a "garbage" stat, why would care about the 2 metrics that make up OPS?

06-12-2022, 01:32 PM	#5
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,978	I agree with you to this extent. OPS blurs the distinction between slugging and on-base talent, at least for guys you don’t know. Now, I don’t ever deal with created players, so I’m generally familiar with what the components of a .950 are likely to be. Ricky Henderson won’t look like Joey Gallo. But I’m with you in working on a lineup, for example. I really like a high OBP and good eye rating in my leadoff guy. I reject the idea of leading off a slugger, unless he has a high OBP too, and/or you have a whole team of sluggers. In setting the lineup, breaking out OBP versus SLG is useful. What baffles me, particularly in smaller sample sizes, is that dudes with great eye ratings can have an anemic OBP, and guys with high slugging ratings can have a low SLG. At least, in terms of the validity of OPS, a guy who is tanking on OBP is likely tanking on SLG as well. And yes, as a Phils fan, Rhys Hoskins is the exception that proves what I just said. LOL.

06-12-2022, 04:17 PM	#7
MathBandit All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 1,445	I mean, learning that OPS is flawed is what, grade 7 maths? You can't just take two fractions with different denominators and add them together without converting one or both to have the same denominator. It's especially problematic in this context since outside of the context of a specific PA while OPS does somehow still work as a reasonable measure of a player's value (despite the flawed maths), in the context of a specific game situation knowing a player has a .750 OPS tells you just about nothing about what the right approach is if there's a runner on 2nd.

06-13-2022, 11:44 AM	#11
BarneyRubble Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 162	OBP is shown, therefore OPS is useless under the circumstances. OBP and SLG tell me VERY specific things about a player. OPS tells me what I get when I add OBP and SLG. Ironically, the stats at the bottom show SLG.

06-13-2022, 12:36 PM	#14
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,910	OPS is what it is, but I never understand these listings that substitute it for SLG and show it with AVG and OBP. If there's room for 3 batter stats, make them AVG/OBP/SLG.And that's not just OOTP, I'm always surprised and irritated when I see it listed that way. __________________ Let's Go (San Jose) Giants, Let's Go Mets! Current Project: WBAT/AABBA: Organized Base Ball And the "New Normal" World Baseball Aid Tournament 2023 trophy round underway!