The future of Negro League baseball & OOTP: A Suggestion

3fbrown · 12-11-2021, 01:34 PM

Since the last edition of OOTP was developed, several of the Negro Leagues have been recognized by MLB as major leagues. And while there are issues with MLB being the gatekeeper for such decisions, it is certainly a step in the right direction, to acknowledge the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro League Black baseball as baseball being played at the highest level. It is possible that OOTP already has plans to include Negro Leaguers into the database more equitably. But as someone that has manually done this somewhat extensively, I'd like to make a suggestion.

While everyone plays OOTP differently, what I would like to see is an option to have Negro League players in your OOTP league. And more importantly, to have those players import with appropriate talents. My experience (which is version 21) is that they import with pretty low talents, particularly from pre-Negro League years (pre-1920). I end up having to adjust everything by hand, using online resources like Seamheads.

My suggestion is to use what is, as far as I know, the best translation system of converting Negro League stats to AL/NL stats. That would be the system of Eric Chalek. Chalek has worked on these translations for many years, first with the Hall of Merit, and most recently on the Hall of Miller & Eric website. This recent work is, in my understanding, the best work anywhere. He has done similar work for Japanese League stats as well.

I strongly encourage OOTP to contact Eric Chalek and get permission to use his work, so that we can enjoy Negro League players in OOTP in the most realistic way possible. Here are some more links that maybe of interest.

Explanations of batting and pitching translations
Interview with Chalek about his work
GoFundMe where he explains his goal of sharing his work

luckymann · 12-11-2021, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3fbrown

Since the last edition of OOTP was developed, several of the Negro Leagues have been recognized by MLB as major leagues. And while there are issues with MLB being the gatekeeper for such decisions, it is certainly a step in the right direction, to acknowledge the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro League Black baseball as baseball being played at the highest level. It is possible that OOTP already has plans to include Negro Leaguers into the database more equitably. But as someone that has manually done this somewhat extensively, I'd like to make a suggestion.

While everyone plays OOTP differently, what I would like to see is an option to have Negro League players in your OOTP league. And more importantly, to have those players import with appropriate talents. My experience (which is version 21) is that they import with pretty low talents, particularly from pre-Negro League years (pre-1920). I end up having to adjust everything by hand, using online resources like Seamheads.

My suggestion is to use what is, as far as I know, the best translation system of converting Negro League stats to AL/NL stats. That would be the system of Eric Chalek. Chalek has worked on these translations for many years, first with the Hall of Merit, and most recently on the Hall of Miller & Eric website. This recent work is, in my understanding, the best work anywhere. He has done similar work for Japanese League stats as well.

I strongly encourage OOTP to contact Eric Chalek and get permission to use his work, so that we can enjoy Negro League players in OOTP in the most realistic way possible. Here are some more links that maybe of interest.

Explanations of batting and pitching translations
Interview with Chalek about his work
GoFundMe where he explains his goal of sharing his work

100% 3fb.

Have you checked out my Bucs save (link in sig)?

Historical MLB save with some twists including integration from 1909. Curated imports of a bunch of NeL players, derived from a project myself and a couple other OOTPers have been working on this year, which for me heavily revolves around MLEs. I have been in contact with Eric - he and Miller have had a parting of the ways, thus why no recent posts on HOME. Not sure where that leaves their work, I believe that might well be one of the issues.

Anyway, if you're interested in further discussion hit me up with a PM.

G

LansdowneSt · 12-13-2021, 02:24 AM

Everything 3fbrown said x1000

MLB isn't the gatekeeper of whether those NeL stats are counted as MLB-quality in OOTP... OOTP is. For example, MLB doesn't treat the National Association (NA) as major league stats - but OOTP does. Because it's their game. To give the NeL the same recognition and to give us the same opportunity to play those NeL players as we do the NA players, all they have to do is:

Update the Historical Database by moving the NeL players from the Minors Database to the Major-League one and then, using the latest Seamheads, update their stats (and community members would line up to QA/QC said database as it's a huge effort). OOTP can do it not just for those here and there seasons that MLB recognized. It can instead - for better game play - do it for all of them. Every KC Monarchs game. Every Birmingham Black Barons game. All of them regardless of them being in or out of an "MLB recognized" league in a given year. Maybe Cuban Leagues get AAA but recognizing those as MLB games would help with sample size and recognize that the players were just looking to play. The only thing OOTP is bound by is what they believe the users want and what they want for the best of OOTP. Hence the NA decision.

The statistical performances of the NeL'ers will not break the game if elevated to MLB status because 1) The sample size for the handful of outlier, high-performance seasons will be below defaults and so imports and player creation will be nerfed by that alone 2) If players in the 1871-75 - or even the pre-1893 game - can get full MLB credit for stats derived from close to the plate, underhand, pitch-it-where-I-tell-you, games that barely look like modern baseball... not giving credit to NeL'ers on some MLB-comparison argument isn't justifiable.

This change would allow them to come into Random Debut games. In historical replays, the color-barrier will keep them out of the historic MLB replays and so with that one toggle of the existing "color-barrier" checkbox, one can let them in or keep them out.

There is so, so much that could be made better about the NeLs in the game. Some can't be done because of the way the MLB was set-up in the game and that's fine. But doing justice to the NeL'ers should be a priority for the game. I know PT is the money maker these days and, hey, I'm enjoying middling around the Diamond Level - but the core game is my passion and of all the suggestions out there - THIS - the NeL jump forward - is far better than coaches or personalities or other window dressing and baubles.

Let us know, OOTP. Is there a plan? Please do a podcast. Hold an AMA. Get the development team on a Twitch discussion to take chat queries. I'm sure it will take years to do it all. That's fine. I've been here since OOTP 6. The game is tremendous, and we'll stand by, we'll help crowd-source data or solutions. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. I'll take the good at this point. So, please, just give us a reason to hope.

Once the NeL'ers are properly in, I'll even make all the facegens

Pelican · 12-15-2021, 10:54 PM

Totally agree with all that has been said. And I suspect there are quite a few others who have struggled with OOTP Negro League imports and ratings. One additional resource would be the stats from the numerous post-season barnstorming series between MLB and Negro League all-star teams. In the 1930’s when times were tough, many players (not in the WS) played into October, and the color line was ignored. I’m always surprised that more is not made of these matchups. All told, yes they would be a relatively small sample size, but critical as the only examples of white players actually facing black players. The Negro League players more than held their own. Perhaps because white major leaguers were playing, there are comprehensive stats for most of these games. The numbers show that OOTP has seriously understated the talents of the better Negro League players. And yes, I would be happy to beta test, quality control, research stats, whatever would help the developers improve this aspect of a great game. For sure, there is some kind of retrospective equity in being able to include these players in the game. Improving on IRL.

Cool Papa Bell · 12-16-2021, 12:03 PM

Would love to see it! I talked to Marcus back in 2006 about it. Ah well, time passes. Recently about a partnership with OOTP and the Negro League Museum in Kansas City so trying to keep it on the radar.

Trebro · 12-17-2021, 10:53 PM

I'm not sure how much coding that would take, but I would love nothing more than to be able to run a historical replay with full integration from day one without having to do brain surgery on the database. It would be a great touch if they can make it happen. (But I do understand coding resources are limited and I'm not sure how many of us there are that would want this.)

KJOK · 02-02-2022, 12:48 PM

A little background on OOTP and the Negro Leagues. A couple years ago OOTP and Seamheads made an agreement that allowed OOTP to use the Seamheads data within the OOTP game. However, OOTP made decisions about ratings and how to handle that data such that the Negro Leagues were basically "AA" level.

Also, since that time, the Seamheads Database has been expanded and updated with new and better information.

OOTP has not yet indicated any desire to enter into a new agreement and get updated information, or to "improve" how they rate the Negro Leagues within OOTP.

OOTP also COULD decide to just license Eric Chalek's MLEs...https://horsehidedragnet.wordpress.com/

3fbrown · 02-02-2022, 01:49 PM

Thanks KJOK, I didn't know Eric had started a new blog, but it makes sense. At this point I really don't think that OOTP can avoid doing better with the Negro Leagues - they are officially recognized as Major Leagues, and if they are relegated to mostly useless AA players in the minor league database, that is very problematic.

The main problem with the Chalek MLEs is that it only covers the best players, though the blog indicates he may have expanded that list a bit. But the ability to get everyone is there, it will just take time for someone to do it. I'll bet there are volunteers around here to help, including me.

I appreciate the comments from everyone here! It's an interesting point in time with the Negro League data. There is a lot of it, but understanding it and putting it into context is tough, and not many folks are working on it. My dream is that someday we basically have MLEs for every league in history - Japan, Cuba, Negro Leagues, PCL and other minor leagues, even MLB to account for segregation like Chalek has done as well for his project.

LansdowneSt · 02-02-2022, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJOK

OOTP made decisions about ratings and how to handle that data such that the Negro Leagues were basically "AA" level. [/url]

This is the most disappointing news in the post. That OOTP decided this versus were compelled to somehow. But as others have said, a lot has changed even recently. I just received the SABR book "The Negro Leagues are Major Leagues" and Todd Peterson's essay in there gets a shout out in today's ESPN article (the middle part) here: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...t-try-find-out I'm convinced all the stats ought to get the MLB treatment in-game same as the NA if only for gameplay purposes which is I presume to be OOTP's first concern.

So aside from the cost of the license - what is the hesitation of the OOTP team that is so great about everything else to neglect this part of baseball history? I assume it is time and effort to do. Taking up the database's time from other projects is weighed against other priorities and somehow the the NeL comes out on the wrong side of the priority line.

So, how can we that care best help them?

There are import/export savvy people that could take all the Seamheads data and populate the relevant csv files such that it could be pasted on to the in-game csv's after every patch, no? For the fielding that excel supplement could take Sprtize's work, no? The bio info could be taken from the current MiLB csv and then crowdsourced out for error correcting, no? If a community-based team could be allowed to work this and got some guidance from OOTP HQ on what to do to lighten their load and put it on a silver platter, I think the community would respond. Absent that coordination toward the goal of getting it in the game, we're all otherwise left to modify our own csv's, stay in older version of the game so as not to lose that work, some using MLEs and some using Seamheads, some using comps and the editor function to reverse engineer players every year. All that time and community effort could go to the common goal of getting the game that ships every March better instead of our own individual sims (acknowledging some may still tweak it after

).

The merging of master databases shouldn't be a first concern, creating a second "major" league in the game should be a first concern, figuring out contraction for NeL teams shouldn't be a first concern - let's just get the stats right and at the best level for gameplay. Let them be MLB Free Agents absent the color barrier. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

So, to the developer reading this, please, I ask again - how can we help?

12-11-2021, 01:34 PM	#1
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	The future of Negro League baseball & OOTP: A Suggestion Since the last edition of OOTP was developed, several of the Negro Leagues have been recognized by MLB as major leagues. And while there are issues with MLB being the gatekeeper for such decisions, it is certainly a step in the right direction, to acknowledge the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro League Black baseball as baseball being played at the highest level. It is possible that OOTP already has plans to include Negro Leaguers into the database more equitably. But as someone that has manually done this somewhat extensively, I'd like to make a suggestion. While everyone plays OOTP differently, what I would like to see is an option to have Negro League players in your OOTP league. And more importantly, to have those players import with appropriate talents. My experience (which is version 21) is that they import with pretty low talents, particularly from pre-Negro League years (pre-1920). I end up having to adjust everything by hand, using online resources like Seamheads. My suggestion is to use what is, as far as I know, the best translation system of converting Negro League stats to AL/NL stats. That would be the system of Eric Chalek. Chalek has worked on these translations for many years, first with the Hall of Merit, and most recently on the Hall of Miller & Eric website. This recent work is, in my understanding, the best work anywhere. He has done similar work for Japanese League stats as well. I strongly encourage OOTP to contact Eric Chalek and get permission to use his work, so that we can enjoy Negro League players in OOTP in the most realistic way possible. Here are some more links that maybe of interest. Explanations of batting and pitching translations Interview with Chalek about his work GoFundMe where he explains his goal of sharing his work Last edited by 3fbrown; 12-11-2021 at 01:36 PM.

12-16-2021, 12:03 PM	#5
Cool Papa Bell Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 434	Would love to see it! I talked to Marcus back in 2006 about it. Ah well, time passes. Recently about a partnership with OOTP and the Negro League Museum in Kansas City so trying to keep it on the radar. __________________ "About race, I'm going to say this. If you're green or purple or whatever color, you can play for me if I think you can help this ballclub.That's all I'm going to say about race." Leo Durocher, New York Giants manager, 1946

12-17-2021, 10:53 PM	#6
Trebro All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 753	I'm not sure how much coding that would take, but I would love nothing more than to be able to run a historical replay with full integration from day one without having to do brain surgery on the database. It would be a great touch if they can make it happen. (But I do understand coding resources are limited and I'm not sure how many of us there are that would want this.) __________________ 2020 2021

02-02-2022, 12:48 PM	#7
KJOK Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 1	A little background on OOTP and the Negro Leagues. A couple years ago OOTP and Seamheads made an agreement that allowed OOTP to use the Seamheads data within the OOTP game. However, OOTP made decisions about ratings and how to handle that data such that the Negro Leagues were basically "AA" level. Also, since that time, the Seamheads Database has been expanded and updated with new and better information. OOTP has not yet indicated any desire to enter into a new agreement and get updated information, or to "improve" how they rate the Negro Leagues within OOTP. OOTP also COULD decide to just license Eric Chalek's MLEs...https://horsehidedragnet.wordpress.com/ Last edited by KJOK; 02-02-2022 at 01:07 PM.

12-13-2021, 02:24 AM	#3
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,559	Everything 3fbrown said x1000 MLB isn't the gatekeeper of whether those NeL stats are counted as MLB-quality in OOTP... OOTP is. For example, MLB doesn't treat the National Association (NA) as major league stats - but OOTP does. Because it's their game. To give the NeL the same recognition and to give us the same opportunity to play those NeL players as we do the NA players, all they have to do is: Update the Historical Database by moving the NeL players from the Minors Database to the Major-League one and then, using the latest Seamheads, update their stats (and community members would line up to QA/QC said database as it's a huge effort). OOTP can do it not just for those here and there seasons that MLB recognized. It can instead - for better game play - do it for all of them. Every KC Monarchs game. Every Birmingham Black Barons game. All of them regardless of them being in or out of an "MLB recognized" league in a given year. Maybe Cuban Leagues get AAA but recognizing those as MLB games would help with sample size and recognize that the players were just looking to play. The only thing OOTP is bound by is what they believe the users want and what they want for the best of OOTP. Hence the NA decision. The statistical performances of the NeL'ers will not break the game if elevated to MLB status because 1) The sample size for the handful of outlier, high-performance seasons will be below defaults and so imports and player creation will be nerfed by that alone 2) If players in the 1871-75 - or even the pre-1893 game - can get full MLB credit for stats derived from close to the plate, underhand, pitch-it-where-I-tell-you, games that barely look like modern baseball... not giving credit to NeL'ers on some MLB-comparison argument isn't justifiable. This change would allow them to come into Random Debut games. In historical replays, the color-barrier will keep them out of the historic MLB replays and so with that one toggle of the existing "color-barrier" checkbox, one can let them in or keep them out. There is so, so much that could be made better about the NeLs in the game. Some can't be done because of the way the MLB was set-up in the game and that's fine. But doing justice to the NeL'ers should be a priority for the game. I know PT is the money maker these days and, hey, I'm enjoying middling around the Diamond Level - but the core game is my passion and of all the suggestions out there - THIS - the NeL jump forward - is far better than coaches or personalities or other window dressing and baubles. Let us know, OOTP. Is there a plan? Please do a podcast. Hold an AMA. Get the development team on a Twitch discussion to take chat queries. I'm sure it will take years to do it all. That's fine. I've been here since OOTP 6. The game is tremendous, and we'll stand by, we'll help crowd-source data or solutions. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. I'll take the good at this point. So, please, just give us a reason to hope. Once the NeL'ers are properly in, I'll even make all the facegens

12-15-2021, 10:54 PM	#4
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,000	Totally agree with all that has been said. And I suspect there are quite a few others who have struggled with OOTP Negro League imports and ratings. One additional resource would be the stats from the numerous post-season barnstorming series between MLB and Negro League all-star teams. In the 1930’s when times were tough, many players (not in the WS) played into October, and the color line was ignored. I’m always surprised that more is not made of these matchups. All told, yes they would be a relatively small sample size, but critical as the only examples of white players actually facing black players. The Negro League players more than held their own. Perhaps because white major leaguers were playing, there are comprehensive stats for most of these games. The numbers show that OOTP has seriously understated the talents of the better Negro League players. And yes, I would be happy to beta test, quality control, research stats, whatever would help the developers improve this aspect of a great game. For sure, there is some kind of retrospective equity in being able to include these players in the game. Improving on IRL.

02-02-2022, 01:49 PM	#8
3fbrown Major Leagues Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 414	Thanks KJOK, I didn't know Eric had started a new blog, but it makes sense. At this point I really don't think that OOTP can avoid doing better with the Negro Leagues - they are officially recognized as Major Leagues, and if they are relegated to mostly useless AA players in the minor league database, that is very problematic. The main problem with the Chalek MLEs is that it only covers the best players, though the blog indicates he may have expanded that list a bit. But the ability to get everyone is there, it will just take time for someone to do it. I'll bet there are volunteers around here to help, including me. I appreciate the comments from everyone here! It's an interesting point in time with the Negro League data. There is a lot of it, but understanding it and putting it into context is tough, and not many folks are working on it. My dream is that someday we basically have MLEs for every league in history - Japan, Cuba, Negro Leagues, PCL and other minor leagues, even MLB to account for segregation like Chalek has done as well for his project.