Game not adhering to league average attendance

cbbl · 07-05-2021, 08:54 PM

In the early days of baseball, stadiums were often rarely filled. For example, while Boston's Fenway Park opened with a capacity of nearly 35,000, the average attendance at Red Sox games was less than 8,000.

I *thought* OOTP would handle this correctly, but it does not seem to.

In my fictional league, I have a stadium that accommodates 9,200. But the league's average attendance, as set in the Financial Options, is only 750 per game. Yet, after running a test season, the average attendance for team #1 was nearly 5,300. That's a lot more than 750. Lest we think it was just because that team was awesome or had amazing loyalty, all of the teams had average attendance of at least 4,000.

Clearly, I'm going to have to manually adjust market size and/or team loyalty to accomplish this.

To test this I started a historical league in 1888. Per the game, the average game attendance is 1,555. Stadium capacities range from 5,000 to over 15K, and average somewhere between 6 - 10K -- clearly the average attendance is a fraction of the stadium no matter what.

I simmed a season and took a look.

The Hooisers had average attendance of 1,345 (good). Market size/fan loyalty/fan interest was Above Avg/Above Avg/81

The Brooklyn Bridegrooms average was 1,964 (again, good), With Big/Above Avg/88

The Boston Beaneaters was 1621...the Athletics 1586...the Browns 1328.

Even the NY Giants, with the largest capacity park (at 15,000) had average attendance of just 1,622.

All as expected.

So why in my fictional league is this not working?

NOW ...here's the kicker.

Once I simmed the second season, things looked much better. While the financial settings still had 750 as the attendance baseline the average league attendance now ranged from 802/game to 2800/game. Big difference from year 1.

So what gives?

Thanks.

cbbl · 07-08-2021, 11:42 AM

Any thoughts? Not a super huge issue, but I'm finding myself manually manipulating stadium capacities to control the average attendance.

There seem to be a few quirks with the first season of a fictional universe--from player creation to things like this. Eager to learn if I have to change settings somehow.

Lukas Berger · 07-08-2021, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbbl

Any thoughts? Not a super huge issue, but I'm finding myself manually manipulating stadium capacities to control the average attendance.

There seem to be a few quirks with the first season of a fictional universe--from player creation to things like this. Eager to learn if I have to change settings somehow.

No I'm not sure off hand to be honest. I'll log this and the devs will take a look at it when they get a chance

Lukas Berger · 07-08-2021, 12:21 PM

I think we'll likely need to see the league files for this league though, if you still have them in the season where the attendance is wonky.

Tiger Fan · 07-08-2021, 12:36 PM

Could it possibly be that the ‘check’ for team attendance comparison to league average attendance modifier is only done at year end so it does not get checked in the first season of a fictional league?

I am thinking that maybe CBBL adjusted his financial settings modifiers perhaps after the league was created so the game maybe does not check them for changes after league creation until the end of year one if that makes sense.

Matt Arnold · 07-08-2021, 12:39 PM

The first thing I would check in the above setup is season tickets. If the league average attendance was higher while those tickets were being sold, and then dropped down after, then those tickets are still sold. Otherwise, average attendance is compared and used every game individually.

cbbl · 07-08-2021, 02:04 PM

Three things:

1. Yes, I modified financial settings after game creation, including average ticket price.

2. I'm not sure when season tickets get assigned -- is it preseason or opening day? As a small 19th century league, I don't have spring training. In any event, on opening day I zero out season tickets and season ticket revenue as, though in RL season tickets were sold as early as 1870, I'm not ready to have them in my league quite yet. However, the simulation I did to show the attendance wonkiness did not make this adjustment.

3. Yes, I can recreate the issue given the way I save league files periodically through the seasons (rather than overwriting them). Happy to run some tests and share the files.

Lastly -- I suspect that Tiger Fan is on to something, as this is not the only first season bizarreness I've noticed. As I put in another thread, it seems the game is a little wonky when creating players (particularly created player age), although I have no certainty that the issue is related. I'm too young in this league to have enough seasons to evaluate, though I'm happy to test by simming further.

In any event, here are the screenshots from my test (which, btw does not zero season tickets). Note in the team Finances screen the 1887 season does not exist--the league's first season is 1888. The results of other teams not pictured below are similar.

For kicks, I simmed through three seasons, stopping at the beginning of the third season to remove season tickets just to see what would happen.

[Note: Given the large size of these images, the images below are thumbnails. Click them to see the full image]

The applicable Financial Setting:

Attendance for two teams after the inaugural (1888) season:

Attendance for the two teams after the 2nd season (1889):

Attendance for the two teams after the 3rd season, with season tickets removed:

Lastly, the Attendance Record showing the change in attendance for all four teams of the league. Of course some change is expected given fan interest, fan loyalty, and team performance, but you can clearly see that the first season's attendance seemed more tied to stadium capacity than baseline league attendance, which did not change over the three-year sim.

While no average attendance is near the baseline of 750 (perhaps I'm uncertain of how the baseline is used in the game), the 2nd and 3rd season are, at least, within reasonable range of the setting.

Rain King · 07-08-2021, 02:51 PM

I also think Season Tickets are likely your main culprit here. They get assigned early in the process (maybe beginning of the preseason?), so if you've simulated any days at all after creating the league then they were probably based off of your initial numbers.

Another possible inflation area is Fan Interest. I feel like that might be high (80 or 100) for every team at the beginning of a fictional league.

*Edit* - Sorry, didn't see the images initially as my work VPN had them blocked. Agree with Matt below that it doesn't seem like a Season Ticket issue.

Matt Arnold · 07-08-2021, 03:51 PM

Hmm, the green bar for season tickets is fairly low even in those first screenshots, so that might not be the cause. If you have a save from before or during the first season, please upload that and we can dig into why it might be off.

cbbl · 07-08-2021, 06:06 PM

Matt... I'll do that, though you may need to refresh my memory on where/how to do so.

[EDIT: Never mind, I found the sticky note with the instructions. I'll get it up there later.]

07-08-2021, 12:21 PM	#4
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 21,363	I think we'll likely need to see the league files for this league though, if you still have them in the season where the attendance is wonky. __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com PreOrder Out of the Park Baseball 26! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

07-08-2021, 12:36 PM	#5
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,795	Could it possibly be that the ‘check’ for team attendance comparison to league average attendance modifier is only done at year end so it does not get checked in the first season of a fictional league? I am thinking that maybe CBBL adjusted his financial settings modifiers perhaps after the league was created so the game maybe does not check them for changes after league creation until the end of year one if that makes sense. __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles Last edited by Tiger Fan; 07-08-2021 at 12:38 PM.

07-08-2021, 02:04 PM	#7
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	Three things: 1. Yes, I modified financial settings after game creation, including average ticket price. 2. I'm not sure when season tickets get assigned -- is it preseason or opening day? As a small 19th century league, I don't have spring training. In any event, on opening day I zero out season tickets and season ticket revenue as, though in RL season tickets were sold as early as 1870, I'm not ready to have them in my league quite yet. However, the simulation I did to show the attendance wonkiness did not make this adjustment. 3. Yes, I can recreate the issue given the way I save league files periodically through the seasons (rather than overwriting them). Happy to run some tests and share the files. Lastly -- I suspect that Tiger Fan is on to something, as this is not the only first season bizarreness I've noticed. As I put in another thread, it seems the game is a little wonky when creating players (particularly created player age), although I have no certainty that the issue is related. I'm too young in this league to have enough seasons to evaluate, though I'm happy to test by simming further. In any event, here are the screenshots from my test (which, btw does not zero season tickets). Note in the team Finances screen the 1887 season does not exist--the league's first season is 1888. The results of other teams not pictured below are similar. For kicks, I simmed through three seasons, stopping at the beginning of the third season to remove season tickets just to see what would happen. [Note: Given the large size of these images, the images below are thumbnails. Click them to see the full image] The applicable Financial Setting: Attendance for two teams after the inaugural (1888) season: Attendance for the two teams after the 2nd season (1889): Attendance for the two teams after the 3rd season, with season tickets removed: Lastly, the Attendance Record showing the change in attendance for all four teams of the league. Of course some change is expected given fan interest, fan loyalty, and team performance, but you can clearly see that the first season's attendance seemed more tied to stadium capacity than baseline league attendance, which did not change over the three-year sim. While no average attendance is near the baseline of 750 (perhaps I'm uncertain of how the baseline is used in the game), the 2nd and 3rd season are, at least, within reasonable range of the setting. Last edited by cbbl; 07-08-2021 at 02:05 PM.

07-08-2021, 02:51 PM	#8
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,120 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I also think Season Tickets are likely your main culprit here. They get assigned early in the process (maybe beginning of the preseason?), so if you've simulated any days at all after creating the league then they were probably based off of your initial numbers. Another possible inflation area is Fan Interest. I feel like that might be high (80 or 100) for every team at the beginning of a fictional league. Edit - Sorry, didn't see the images initially as my work VPN had them blocked. Agree with Matt below that it doesn't seem like a Season Ticket issue. Last edited by Rain King; 07-08-2021 at 04:52 PM.

07-05-2021, 08:54 PM	#1
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	Game not adhering to league average attendance In the early days of baseball, stadiums were often rarely filled. For example, while Boston's Fenway Park opened with a capacity of nearly 35,000, the average attendance at Red Sox games was less than 8,000. I thought OOTP would handle this correctly, but it does not seem to. In my fictional league, I have a stadium that accommodates 9,200. But the league's average attendance, as set in the Financial Options, is only 750 per game. Yet, after running a test season, the average attendance for team #1 was nearly 5,300. That's a lot more than 750. Lest we think it was just because that team was awesome or had amazing loyalty, all of the teams had average attendance of at least 4,000. Clearly, I'm going to have to manually adjust market size and/or team loyalty to accomplish this. To test this I started a historical league in 1888. Per the game, the average game attendance is 1,555. Stadium capacities range from 5,000 to over 15K, and average somewhere between 6 - 10K -- clearly the average attendance is a fraction of the stadium no matter what. I simmed a season and took a look. The Hooisers had average attendance of 1,345 (good). Market size/fan loyalty/fan interest was Above Avg/Above Avg/81 The Brooklyn Bridegrooms average was 1,964 (again, good), With Big/Above Avg/88 The Boston Beaneaters was 1621...the Athletics 1586...the Browns 1328. Even the NY Giants, with the largest capacity park (at 15,000) had average attendance of just 1,622. All as expected. So why in my fictional league is this not working? NOW ...here's the kicker. Once I simmed the second season, things looked much better. While the financial settings still had 750 as the attendance baseline the average league attendance now ranged from 802/game to 2800/game. Big difference from year 1. So what gives? Thanks. Last edited by cbbl; 07-08-2021 at 11:41 AM.

07-08-2021, 11:42 AM	#2
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	Any thoughts? Not a super huge issue, but I'm finding myself manually manipulating stadium capacities to control the average attendance. There seem to be a few quirks with the first season of a fictional universe--from player creation to things like this. Eager to learn if I have to change settings somehow.

07-08-2021, 12:39 PM	#6
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,842	The first thing I would check in the above setup is season tickets. If the league average attendance was higher while those tickets were being sold, and then dropped down after, then those tickets are still sold. Otherwise, average attendance is compared and used every game individually.

07-08-2021, 03:51 PM	#9
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,842	Hmm, the green bar for season tickets is fairly low even in those first screenshots, so that might not be the cause. If you have a save from before or during the first season, please upload that and we can dig into why it might be off.

07-08-2021, 06:06 PM	#10
cbbl All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,179	Matt... I'll do that, though you may need to refresh my memory on where/how to do so. [EDIT: Never mind, I found the sticky note with the instructions. I'll get it up there later.]