Where is Jeromy Burnitz in 1993?

[swede61]

Am I the only one who can't find Jeromy Burnitz in OOTP21??

What do you do if a player is missing?

Swede

[Lukas Berger]

Have you searched for him using the search function?

He should be there, but he might be on the injured list or somewhere other than where you expect him to be and a search should find him.

[swede61]

Yes- search doesnt find him...

[David Watts]

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by swede61

Am I the only one who can't find Jeromy Burnitz in OOTP21??

What do you do if a player is missing?

Swede

Burnitz shows up for me in 1993. Can you say more about your league? Did you start it in 1993, or earlier?

[swede61]

I've already done 1992, historical league- this would be his first appearance in June; I'm about to hit May 93, and he's AWOL..nothing comes up on search

[pstrickert]

I don't think he played in a game until June 1993. So, the transaction file may be preventing him from showing up until then. I'm not sure. Let us know what happens when you get through June.

[thehef]

I just ran a test, starting in 1992, with historical transactions on, no minors.

- 1992, start of game: Burnitz is not in the game yet. IRL, he was in the minors.

- 1/1/93: Burnitz has imported (at the start of the offseason, back in Oct '92) to the New York Mets and is on their roster.

- 4/5/93, opening day: He makes the Mets' roster. IRL, he started the season with the Mets' AAA affiliate (Tidewater).

The historical transactions file doesn't have any transactions in it that would keep him off the roster until his actual (6/21/93) MLB debut. It has his amateur signing date (with NYM) of 6/13/90, and then his trade to Cleveland on 11/18/94. Nothing in-between those dates. The file does include his debut date, but since he's active prior to that date in my test, I'm pretty sure that the game ignores the debut date.

I have zero experience using real lineups, but if you are using those, that should keep him out of the lineup until his first start (on 6/26/93), but it shouldn't preclude him from being on the roster (though OOTP AI might place him on the reserve roster instead), and it definitely shouldn't disappear him. So I dunno.

You may want to provide more info on your game, as pstrickert suggested. And/or you might also try doing a test, essentially the same setup as your league, and seeing if the issue repeats.

[pstrickert]

M's rule, the transactions database guru, has tried to figure out what to do with players who didn't debut until later in the season. Sometimes, he's added a phantom entry in the file to keep the player from appearing before his debut date. But this has to be done on a case-by-case basis, manually. Burnitz is one of those cases. I don't know if M's rule is aware of him. I'll have to check. That said, it seems Burnitz should be somewhere and a search should locate him.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

M's rule, the transactions database guru, has tried to figure out what to do with players who didn't debut until later in the season. Sometimes, he's added a phantom entry in the file to keep the player from appearing before his debut date. But this has to be done on a case-by-case basis, manually. Burnitz is one of those cases. I don't know if M's rule is aware of him. I'll have to check. That said, it seems Burnitz should be somewhere and a search should locate him.

That would be a monster project, basically talking about every player who started the season in the minors but later appeared that season with the big club...

At any rate, are those phantom entries intended to be used only for historical lineups mode but not necessarily historical transactions mode? Hope so, because if I'm replaying a team's season, *I* would want to be the one who decides whether, in this example, Burnitz makes the '93 opening day roster or is instead in the minors or on the reserve roster.

[pstrickert]

I believe he's hoping to catch not every player but the more significant players. Puig would be an example. If he's on the roster from OD, he could make a difference, even if just in a bench role. This doesn't reflect historical reality, so when it happens, people notice and complain. The argument is that if you're using real lineups and transactions, this kind of thing should be prevented. Technically, it's true that a transaction (i.e., minor league call-up) happened in real life. So, the phantom entry is supposed to account for it. (The worst is when a player is available from OD, even though he came up briefly in September for a few games. That really doesn't seem right.)

[thehef]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

I believe he's hoping to catch not every player but the more significant players. Puig would be an example. If he's on the roster from OD, he could make a difference, even if just in a bench role. This doesn't reflect historical reality, so when it happens, people notice and complain. The argument is that if you're using real lineups and transactions, this kind of thing should be prevented. Technically, it's true that a transaction (i.e., minor league call-up) happened in real life. So, the phantom entry is supposed to account for it. (The worst is when a player is available from OD, even though he came up briefly in September for a few games. That really doesn't seem right.)

So then in the Burnitz and Puig examples, would the phantom entry prevent me from using those guys (if I'm playing with historical transactions but NOT using historical lineups)? I would hope not. Because if I have OOTP injuries on, and in my '93 sim both Bonilla and Orsulak go down with injuries, I'd surely want to be able to call up Burnitz before mid-June. Same thing with Puig in 2013: if, say, Crawford and/or Ethier goes down early in the season, I might want to promote Puig right away.

So for that reason, these phantom transactions seem like they would be a very good thing for historical lineups mode, but a very, very bad one for historical transactions without lineups mode.

[pstrickert]

The historical transactions database includes historical injuries, so it probably shouldn't be used if injuries are enabled. I seem to recall this conversation coming up before. My memory ain't what it used to be, though.

I've notified M's rule about this thread. He'll probably be able to explain what's going on.

[thehef]

Earlier this year the option was added to use historical transactions but exclude historical injuries. So I think from that perspective, we are good. We just need to make sure, IMO, that the same type of flexibility is included with the phantom transactions.

[swede61]

Yes- doing historical season WITH historical transactions and lineups (not that these are perfect; In my short time replaying seasons, I note players on roster before they should be, and important trades being made too early, or not at all...example 2017- Texas had pitchers making starts on consecutive days or very short rest- turns out, Darvish started the season with Cubs, when he SHOULD have been with TEX early)...Not seeing Burnitz anywhere at all makes me nervous that he won't show up when he needs to be there...I am also assuming, if he IS around, he would be found on a search SOMEWHERE...

I really don't want to lose this season; put a lot of time into settings (I check multiple results vs settings after 20 games; team and individual SB, team and ind. SH, team IBB, team SP/RP %, team PH appearances, and BP 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, and adjust as I go...)

Thanks all for responding btw...

Swede

[swede61]

Also, not using injuries, that messed things up for me before...

[pstrickert]

I created a league beginning in 1992 and simmed into 1993. Burnitz is on the Mets roster from the beginning of the 1993 season. So, I'm at a loss to explain why he went missing in your game.

[pstrickert]

You're right about Darvish. He started the season with TEX before being traded to the Dodgers in late July. M's rule perhaps can tackle this problem.

[swede61]

You're right- I misspoke about Cubs, was indeed LA..

Here's hoping to hear about Burnitz...

Just out of curiosity, is it even possible to import someone from elsewhere if he is, for some reason, NOT in my game?

Or can I create him, if I have all his ratings, etc?

Swede

[M's rule]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

The historical transactions database includes historical injuries, so it probably shouldn't be used if injuries are enabled. I seem to recall this conversation coming up before. My memory ain't what it used to be, though.

I've notified M's rule about this thread. He'll probably be able to explain what's going on.

Late to the party, as usual.

Burnitz does not have a phantom entry in the transactions file. If I were to insert one for him, it would make him inactive (“injured”) at the start of the season. So if you play with transactions on but deselect the IL option, he’ll begin as an active player and probably start the year on the reserve roster.

Puig does have a phantom entry that keeps him inactive at the start of 2013. Again, this will not affect his availability if you play with IL transactions turned off.

The game does ignore a player’s debut date. That’s why the phantom entries have been created: to do the work of keeping rookies off the roster until they actually joined the team.

Combining real transactions with fictional injuries potentially leads to big problems. What happens when a player suffers a season-ending injury before he's scheduled to be traded? The trade goes through, of course, even though it makes no sense for the receiving team to consummate the deal anymore. Despite the promise of “Play it any way you want,” there are parts of OOTP that don’t cooperate with each other very well. This is one example.

swede61, I need more time to figure out the Darvish problem. I'll get back to you.

I'm also curious about "important trades being made too early, or not at all." I can't imagine there's an error of this sort in the data. Can you provide some examples?