baseball of today

jdolecek49 · 10-22-2020, 02:55 PM

I'm a product of the 80's. I grew up worshiping the Kansas City Royals and George Brett. When I was a kid, we played baseball rain or shine, in 10 degree weather no matter what. The game I remember was fill with sac bunts, hit and runs, Pitching by throwing the best pitch in the correct location, a game filled with stolen bases lot like the base running of Ricky Henderson and Willie Wilson and Ozzie smith, but today seems to be filled with every batter trying to hit a home run every time.....what happened to the game of baseball?

dkgo · 10-22-2020, 02:58 PM

Pitchers got better and throw harder.

People got smarter and realized that giving up outs was silly.

dkgo · 10-22-2020, 03:06 PM

Also I'm pretty sure there were still rainouts in the 80s

CBeisbol · 10-22-2020, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdolecek49

I'm a product of the 80's. I grew up worshiping the Kansas City Royals and George Brett. When I was a kid, we played baseball rain or shine, in 10 degree weather no matter what. The game I remember was fill with sac bunts, hit and runs, Pitching by throwing the best pitch in the correct location, a game filled with stolen bases lot like the base running of Ricky Henderson and Willie Wilson and Ozzie smith, but today seems to be filled with every batter trying to hit a home run every time.....what happened to the game of baseball?

It changed
Like the game you grew up with wasn't the same as baseball before it

As dkgo said, the biggest reason is that pitchers pitch much differently than they did before. Thus, hitters hit differently.

cephasjames · 10-22-2020, 04:26 PM

Science and math have stepped in and said there are other (and better) ways of scoring runs and shutting down offenses.

EDIT: Baseball is a game that evolves. Those things that you're so fond of from the 80's were things that the game evolved into from something else.

pgjocki · 10-22-2020, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Science and math have stepped in and said there are other (and better) ways of scoring runs and shutting down offenses.

EDIT: Baseball is a game that evolves. Those things that you're so fond of from the 80's were things that the game evolved into from something else.

True except for the last two days all I've heard on MLB radio is that Mookie is better than Trout because he manufacturers runs on the base paths and puts stress on the defense and pitcher.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

cephasjames · 10-22-2020, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgjocki

True except for the last two days all I've heard on MLB radio is that Mookie is better than Trout because he manufacturers runs on the base paths and puts stress on the defense and pitcher.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Well yeah, manufacturing runs on the basepaths hasn't gone away. It's just not a big a thing as it used to be.

Personally, I'd love to see more run manufacturing, more small ball. Maybe there will be a recurrence in the prominence of small ball again someday. But maybe not.

CBeisbol · 10-22-2020, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgjocki

True except for the last two days all I've heard on MLB radio is that Mookie is better than Trout because he manufacturers runs on the base paths and puts stress on the defense and pitcher.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Don't listen to MLB radio.

pilight · 10-22-2020, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkgo

Pitchers got better and throw harder

Pitchers definitely throw harder. Whether they got better is highly debatable.

CBeisbol · 10-22-2020, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilight

Pitchers definitely throw harder. Whether they got better is highly debatable.

Debate it, then

pilight · 10-23-2020, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Debate it, then

What would suggest pitchers getting better? Allowing fewer runs? Scoring is up, especially in the last five years. Allowing fewer base runners? League OBP was .322 this season, a number that would have fit right in with the 80's the OP mentioned. The only positive for today's pitchers is strikeouts, which have a reverse correlation with scoring (teams that score more tend to strikeout more than teams that score less). That's indicative of throwing harder, but not better

Show me some evidence that pitching has improved.

Hrycaj · 10-23-2020, 02:36 PM

I feel like there are some misconceptions about the running game in general. I really feel some people believe that stolen bases in particular were a prominent part of the game from its inception up until the steroid era or somewhere close. Also, that "baseball people" are so much smarter today than they were in the past. The game has gone through a number of transitions over the decades for a variety of factors. Stolen base trends have been directly affected by these many of these trends. Here is a pretty good article that outlines stolen base trends through all the decades of baseball up until 1976. Although it doesn't cover base stealing trends up until the current day I think people will still see the overall point. To the OP, I would not be shocked if one day the baserunning trends, or the game itself reverts back to something similar to what was employed in the 80's. I couldn't tell you how that would happen? Mandated changes in bat or ball weights. Moving the mound further back? Could be a number of things. I just would not discount the fact that the game will in some way adapt its fundamental rules one day that may make using such a strategy appealing again. Anyway. Here is the article.

https://sabr.org/journal/article/exa...ugh-the-1970s/

mytreds · 10-23-2020, 09:18 PM

Because people choose to value walks, HRs and Ks as more important than bunts, steals and hit and runs.

CBeisbol · 10-23-2020, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilight

What would suggest pitchers getting better? Allowing fewer runs? Scoring is up, especially in the last five years. Allowing fewer base runners? League OBP was .322 this season, a number that would have fit right in with the 80's the OP mentioned. The only positive for today's pitchers is strikeouts, which have a reverse correlation with scoring (teams that score more tend to strikeout more than teams that score less). That's indicative of throwing harder, but not better

Show me some evidence that pitching has improved.

It seems like you said it

Strikeouts are up. Strikeouts are the best possible result a pitcher can have.

Your point about the correlation between strikeouts and run scoring should be a hint. Since there is nothing intrinsically better for the batter striking out, something else must be going on.

This chart (and article) by 538 expresses it pretty well. OPS fell from 2009 to 2014 (pitchers were getting better, and throwing harder). Batters had to adjust. By swinging more for the fences instead of trying to string together singles.

So, yes, there's a decrease in contact, but an increase in offense on contact.

It's what batters had to do to survive against better, and faster, pitching

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...nough-anymore/

pilight · 10-24-2020, 09:04 AM

Baseball has run in alternating cycles of scoring more/less. Those 2010-14 batting numbers were perfectly in line with the glory days of the 1980's the OP was pining for, which were an increase over the 1970's and 1960's.

A strikeout is no better than any other kind of out.

CBeisbol · 10-24-2020, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilight

Baseball has run in alternating cycles of scoring more/less. Those 2010-14 batting numbers were perfectly in line with the glory days of the 1980's the OP was pining for, which were an increase over the 1970's and 1960's.

A strikeout is no better than any other kind of out.

First, uhh...what? Are the goal posts over here now, or are we done with them all together?

Second, the line about strikeouts. It's not really true. First, a sac fly or ground out can advance a runner where a strike out doesn't. Second, it's looking at it entirely the wrong way. A strike out is not better than a ball in play. A ball in play may be turned into an out. But, it may not. A strike out almost always turns into an out.

Strikeouts are ideal for pitchers

Strikeouts are terrible for hitters. With a caveat. Making meaningless contact isn't much better than a strikeout. Endless weak groundballs to second aren't much better than endless strikeouts. Batters have to find a balance between hitting with authority and striking out. If the tradeoff is, say, striking out 20% of the time and hitting 20% of balls well, vs striking out 10% of the time and hitting 10% of balls well, take more strikeouts.

pilight · 10-24-2020, 11:55 AM

Pitchers adjusting to hitters and vice versa doesn't mean they are better than the old days. That's been happening since Cap Anson was a snot nosed rookie.

I'd much rather have a ground ball DP than a strikeout. Strikeouts are no better or worse than other outs.

CBeisbol · 10-24-2020, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilight

I'd much rather have a ground ball DP than a strikeout. Strikeouts are no better or worse than other outs.

Bases loaded
Would you rather have the batter swing and miss or swing and not miss?

I'll give you a hint.
It's better if they swing and miss

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilight

Pitchers adjusting to hitters and vice versa doesn't mean they are better than the old days. That's been happening since Cap Anson was a snot nosed rookie.

They throw harder with more movement. Regardless if some dead guy could perform basic hygiene

rudel.dietrich · 10-24-2020, 02:01 PM

I would surmise that hitters have also gotten better. It happens in every sport, as time goes on, the quality of players increases over time.
Pitchers are better at what they do, but that is balanced out by hitters who are better at what they do couple with being taught from a young age what the best way to create runs is.
Which is work the count, draw walks, and try and drive the ball with power to produce EBH.

dkgo · 10-24-2020, 02:30 PM

It takes some real mental gymnastics to think that pitchers throwing faster doesnt mean they are better. A faster fastball is tougher to hit.

And no that does not mean anyone who throws faster than someone else is a better pitcher, but we are talking about the population of major league pitchers so you would have to argue that they have somehow gotten worse at the non-velocity aspects of pitching over time which flies in the face of everything we know about sports.

10-22-2020, 02:55 PM	#1
jdolecek49 Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Florida Posts: 496	baseball of today I'm a product of the 80's. I grew up worshiping the Kansas City Royals and George Brett. When I was a kid, we played baseball rain or shine, in 10 degree weather no matter what. The game I remember was fill with sac bunts, hit and runs, Pitching by throwing the best pitch in the correct location, a game filled with stolen bases lot like the base running of Ricky Henderson and Willie Wilson and Ozzie smith, but today seems to be filled with every batter trying to hit a home run every time.....what happened to the game of baseball?

10-22-2020, 04:26 PM	#5
cephasjames Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8,736	Science and math have stepped in and said there are other (and better) ways of scoring runs and shutting down offenses. EDIT: Baseball is a game that evolves. Those things that you're so fond of from the 80's were things that the game evolved into from something else. __________________ 5000+ Generic Logos Free for the Taking FREE: Uniforms and logos for 500+ teams spanning 1871-present Great Lakes League: 10 Conferences, 100 Teams Pre-OOTP 23 Custom Cap & Jersey Template v3.0 by Deft and NoPepper (with layers from other various artists) that I use: Caps, Jerseys Last edited by cephasjames; 10-22-2020 at 05:09 PM.

10-23-2020, 02:36 PM	#12
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,542	I feel like there are some misconceptions about the running game in general. I really feel some people believe that stolen bases in particular were a prominent part of the game from its inception up until the steroid era or somewhere close. Also, that "baseball people" are so much smarter today than they were in the past. The game has gone through a number of transitions over the decades for a variety of factors. Stolen base trends have been directly affected by these many of these trends. Here is a pretty good article that outlines stolen base trends through all the decades of baseball up until 1976. Although it doesn't cover base stealing trends up until the current day I think people will still see the overall point. To the OP, I would not be shocked if one day the baserunning trends, or the game itself reverts back to something similar to what was employed in the 80's. I couldn't tell you how that would happen? Mandated changes in bat or ball weights. Moving the mound further back? Could be a number of things. I just would not discount the fact that the game will in some way adapt its fundamental rules one day that may make using such a strategy appealing again. Anyway. Here is the article. https://sabr.org/journal/article/exa...ugh-the-1970s/ __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

10-23-2020, 09:18 PM	#13
mytreds All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 1,115	Because people choose to value walks, HRs and Ks as more important than bunts, steals and hit and runs. __________________ “Baseball isn’t statistics; it’s Joe DiMaggio rounding second.” “Once, centuries ago, it was the beloved national pastime of the Americas, Wesley. Abandoned by a society that prized fast food and faster games. Lost to impatience.” “ The term ‘WAR’ should be replaced by ‘WAG’. WAR isn’t an actual measurement; it’s just a wild-ass guess” -Bill James RIP National League 1876-2022 Floreat semper vel invita morte. I make custom ballparks.

10-22-2020, 02:58 PM	#2
dkgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,152	Pitchers got better and throw harder. People got smarter and realized that giving up outs was silly.

10-22-2020, 03:06 PM	#3
dkgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,152	Also I'm pretty sure there were still rainouts in the 80s

10-24-2020, 09:04 AM	#15
pilight All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Action is Posts: 1,957	Baseball has run in alternating cycles of scoring more/less. Those 2010-14 batting numbers were perfectly in line with the glory days of the 1980's the OP was pining for, which were an increase over the 1970's and 1960's. A strikeout is no better than any other kind of out.

10-24-2020, 11:55 AM	#17
pilight All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Action is Posts: 1,957	Pitchers adjusting to hitters and vice versa doesn't mean they are better than the old days. That's been happening since Cap Anson was a snot nosed rookie. I'd much rather have a ground ball DP than a strikeout. Strikeouts are no better or worse than other outs.

10-24-2020, 02:01 PM	#19
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	I would surmise that hitters have also gotten better. It happens in every sport, as time goes on, the quality of players increases over time. Pitchers are better at what they do, but that is balanced out by hitters who are better at what they do couple with being taught from a young age what the best way to create runs is. Which is work the count, draw walks, and try and drive the ball with power to produce EBH.

10-24-2020, 02:30 PM	#20
dkgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,152	It takes some real mental gymnastics to think that pitchers throwing faster doesnt mean they are better. A faster fastball is tougher to hit. And no that does not mean anyone who throws faster than someone else is a better pitcher, but we are talking about the population of major league pitchers so you would have to argue that they have somehow gotten worse at the non-velocity aspects of pitching over time which flies in the face of everything we know about sports.