Pitcher endurance

JML · 03-03-2002, 04:23 PM

My SP seem to be tiring faster than they did in OOTP3. The manual in v4 is abbreviated compared to v3's. v4 says an E rated SP can throw around 90 pitches, an A rated SP around 130. So those numbers are the same. But my B rated SP, for example, just got tired after throwing 100 pitches. According to the v3 manual he should be able to throw around 120, and I thought this would be the same for v4. And it wasn't due to pitches thrown for the last 5 days, because his previous start (5 days ago) he only threw 73 pitches. Anyone else experiencing this? Are the pitch counts per endurance rating different?

Andy · 03-03-2002, 04:31 PM

I have noticed this with my starters too.

Killebrew · 03-03-2002, 04:35 PM

There is more depth to pitching fatigue in OOTP4, and I'd imagine you are seeing an example of this. I have not yet had a chance to test this but I think that may be a good thing

. I believe pitchers will now tire gradually and get progressively worse the more tired they are - the exact point at which they get tired will be related to their stamina rating but perhaps less predictable than it was in v3, which is not a bad thing either. Had your B rated SP pitched in the last 5 days or had he had plenty of rest?

countrystan · 03-03-2002, 04:47 PM

I was just going to post something about pitcher's endurance. It's definitely NOT more lifelike than in OOTP3. I haven't had a pitcher go more than 100 pitches (on full rest) without being tired. I even notice in simulating games that guys like maddux go 7 2/3 with a shutout and 98 pitches thrown. Maybe the game knows its early in the season and doesn't want to burn them out! GREAT GAME THOUGH. My wife might leave me, however...

JML · 03-03-2002, 04:54 PM

You might be right Killebrew. The times that this has happened, they will turn red, but I inevitably leave them in at least an extra inning (sometimes 2). They still pitch pretty well, sometimes very well. But, I did this in OOTP3 too and they would often pitch well 20 pitches after their "red count". It's hard to tell if they were just getting lucky.

J P Falcon · 03-07-2002, 01:18 PM

Before posting my concern I searched and found this thread.....the foul ball option is playing havoc with my bullpen...I have gone into games with my entire bullpen tired...this was never an issue in OOTP3...unless a future patch addresses this I will do my own workaround and increase all my reliever's endurance by one level...I suggest others do the same...

countrystan · 03-08-2002, 03:37 AM

Foul balls do not wreak any sort of havoc on the pitcher's endurance. I am finding the same number of pitches thrown (I have NOT, as others have reported, seen each foul ball increase pitch count by 4, 5 pitchers, etc). I think it's just that each different rating can now through 15-20 less pitches. I am the Yankees and I have ONE complete game through June...

Broth32 · 03-08-2002, 03:55 AM

I feel the same way about the P's endurance. I have played every game so far into the Cleveland Indians season (about 30 games) and have yet to have a SP go into the 8th inning. B.Colon's endurance is a B and he gets tired around 95-100 pitches (with 5 days rest) Maybe Markus will look into this in the next patch.

VT Os fan · 03-08-2002, 04:30 AM

I have the same issue with reliever's endurance. My mop-up guy with an A RD gets tired after 35 pithces the day after the all-star break and only 20 pitches thrown in the last 5 days. I occasionally let this guy in for another inning or two, but I've had pitchers get injured by making them face an extra batter once they hit "red".

[quote]Originally posted by Broth32:
B.Colon's endurance is a B and he gets tired around 95-100 pitches (with 5 days rest) Maybe Markus will look into this in the next patch.

<hr></blockquote>

If, as others have speculated, being tired does not equal being "out of gas" perhaps there could be two colors for a pitcher's tiredness indicater, like a pink or amber for "getting tired" and the red for "totally spent". This might even be reflected in the rotation where taking a pitcher to the limit requires 4 days rest to be ready again while otherwise he could potentially go on 3 days rest.

marioh · 03-08-2002, 04:40 AM

Interesting. I haven't seen this problem running 4a.
I've had pitchers pitch 120-130 pitches in a game (B and A rated).

I've had relievers that had pitch counts in almost every day (the 5 day pitch count in profile page) and not be tired.

I typically carry 11 pitchers though (5 SP, 6 R).

CMH · 03-08-2002, 04:46 AM

i have to disagree...i think endurance directly reflects a players ability in this game. i have thrown 3 or 4 complete games and have played one and a half months of baseball. you guys need to realize that 100 pitches isnt always that easy to throw. if your pitcher is at 100 by the 5th inning, then he's gonna be tired. i had wells pitch a complete game...his stamina is a C, he didnot get tired. the secret, he pitched only 97 pitches. good forhim! but two starts after that hes gone only as far as the 6th b/c he is at the 100 mark by the 5th. thats his fault. wat i do feel needs to be done is a new rating. maybe somethin like the likelyhood of throwng strikes and puttin the ball in play. randy johnson would be low b/c he's so dominating that the ball is NEVER in play...BUT maybe a finesse pitcher like brad radke or andy pettitte would prefer for the hitter to make contact, therefore decreasing the number of pitches thrown.

civbat · 03-08-2002, 04:48 AM

How could it possibly make a better sim if we know when a pitcher is "out of gas"? If your starter gets "touched-up" in the 8th inning, guess what? He's out of gas. I don't like seeing the pitcher's name change colours. I'd prefer to use the pitch count to measure a pitcher's remaining stamina. Having said that, I'm a firm believer that present pitchers are complete wimps. A 5 man rotation is a sign of a poor pitching staff. A team needs 4 starters that can go for 38+ starts, 15 complete games, and ~300 innings pitched.

*PtP RiP*

CMH · 03-08-2002, 05:17 AM

hmmm...once again i have to disagree. i feel really bad for those pitchers that threw complete games all the time and threw like 500 innings a year, some more than that. we have to remember that back then managers and trainers werent as smart as they are now. and most of the time its not up to the pitcher. ask the pitcher if he wants to come out of a game...i bet he'd say no! managers have to save their investments and make sure that they have them for later on in the season. pitchers arent wimps, it takes alot to throw a 90mph fastball, change it up with a 76mph string, and then flick that wrist to throw a 85 slider in the dirt. it takes alot of work. pitchers years ago didnt throw the pitches that pitchers throw today and the pitches of today put alot of stress on shoulders and wrist. thats one reason why injuries are so high now. look at splitters, it could make your career as it is (in my opinion) the hardest pitch to hit BUT it could also end your career in the matter of seconds. pitching is tough today and alot of strategy goes into a 5 man rotation and saving that starter for important games.

CBL-Commish · 03-08-2002, 05:27 AM

[quote]Originally posted by civbat:
Having said that, I'm a firm believer that present pitchers are complete wimps. A 5 man rotation is a sign of a poor pitching staff. A team needs 4 starters that can go for 38+ starts, 15 complete games, and ~300 innings pitched.
*PtP RiP*<hr></blockquote>

Believe what you want, but that's never been the case, at least since Ruth came along and made every at bat a scoring opportunity. Even in the 60s, the days of high mounds, the huge strike zone, and bigger ballparks there'd usually only be a couple of pitchers in the whole leauge with 300 IPs. Before the 50s or 60s there were many more doubleheaders and a strict four man rotation was basically impossible.

Look at the great Yankee teams of the 50s. A typical year was 1955, when they had nine guys start at least 6 games, and only two pitchers threw 200 innings. Or the '27 Yanks - seven guys started at least nine games, and only one had more than 210 innings pitched. The '50 Phillies had Robin Roberts throw 304 innings. But no one else had more than 209.

The idea that old timer pitchers were supermen is a myth. Don't change the game to try and simulate fiction.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: CBL-Commish ]

civbat · 03-08-2002, 05:41 AM

Well I certainly agree that it takes a lot of talent and skill to throw the pitches that present day pitchers do. I have never thought that current pitchers, in general, are without talent. However I think you may be assuming that the current pitching crop have _more_ talent than the pitchers of a couple decades ago, and I disagree completely with that. I would trade 2 Perdro Matinez's for one Nolan Ryan any day. You keep your Andy Pettite because I want Jack Morris. I find a lot more value in a 3.50era in 280+ IP vs a 2.50era in 180+ IP. Couldn't it be construed that a pitcher has to learn to throw the split finger because he doesn't have the talent to compete otherwise? Might it also be thought that MLB organizations are pressuring their minor league players to learn new pitching techniques because the talent pool is nearly dry?

Ah, just personal preferences really. But it's becoming difficult for me to think that today's star players are actually playing the same game that my hero's played only 20 years ago, and perhaps I should stop trying to compare them.

EDIT:
OK, OK. To appease CBL-Commish, and any one else that was offended by my previous post, I should clarify my stance on starting pitchers.

1) It seems I gave the impression that starting pitchers all pitched 300 or more innings. No, no. My apologies. However I disagree with CBL that they were rare. 300 was a bad number to use, does 272.2 sound better?
2) I also gave the impression that teams only had 4 starters. Once again please accept my apology. I clearly remember the 5th man as the guy that started 12 or 17 games a year but was never considered part of the starting rotation (in general, not a golden rule). The 5th man was the spot starter. Now the spot starter is the 6th man, and the 5th man has a permanent home in the rotation and I don't see this as being better for baseball. Better for the union, but not baseball.

*PtP RiP*

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]

CBL-Commish · 03-08-2002, 05:56 AM

[quote]Originally posted by civbat:
Well I certainly agree that it takes a lot of talent and skill to throw the pitches that present day pitchers do. I have never thought that current pitchers, in general, are without talent. However I think you may be assuming that the current pitching crop have _more_ talent than the pitchers of a couple decades ago, and I disagree completely with that. I would trade 2 Perdro Matinez's for one Nolan Ryan any day. You keep your Andy Pettite because I want Jack Morris. I find a lot more value in a 3.50era in 280+ IP vs a 2.50era in 180+ IP. Couldn't it be construed that a pitcher has to learn to throw the split finger because he doesn't have the talent to compete otherwise? Might it also be thought that MLB organizations are pressuring their minor league players to learn new pitching techniques because the talent pool is nearly dry? Ah, just personal preferences really. But it's becoming difficult for me to think that today's star players are actually playing the same game that my hero's played only 20 years ago, and perhaps I should stop trying to compare them.

*PtP RiP*<hr></blockquote>
I don't think today's pitchers are any more talented, but I do think they are better conditioned, have coaches who better understand biomechanics and what causes stress and strain on an arm, and they have better resources - like videotape, detailed pitch/hit charting for every batter, etc.

I agree Pedro, piching 180 innings, is probably not as valuable as Nolan throwing 300 innings with a little higher ERA. But, Pedro throwing 217 innings with a sub-2.00 ERA in Fenway in a league that averages 5 runs/game is more valuable than Nolan throwing 330 Innings in the Astrodome with a 2.89 ERA in a league that allows less than 3.5 runs a game. That's Pedro's 2000 season comp'ed with Nolan's '74.

There's no way the talent pool is dry. In 1960 there were 16 major league teams drawing mostly from the ~150 million people in the good ol' USA. Today there are 30 teams drawing from 280 million Americans, plus almost as many Dominicans, Mexicans, Japanese, Australians, Koreans, Canadians, Central Americans, Cubans, Arubans, etc, etc.

If all the new Camden Yards/Enron/Ballpark at Arlington/Tropicana fields had been built like Safeco and Comerica (instead of the bandboxes they are) you'd be wondering why there was such a shortage of hitting.

civbat · 03-08-2002, 06:10 AM

Gah! You're too fast for me. It takes me 20 minutes to edit a post while I've got people running into my little cubicle asking stupid questions. It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today

My comments about the talent pool were more a "devil's advocate" stance I enjoy taking. I've heard enough arguments defending the talent and attacking the talent, and it's just enough to keep me from making up my own mind. Please check my Edit so I know we're on the same page (I tried to correct myself).

Nah, you assume too much regarding ballpark size. I'm a bit backwards in that I believe a whiff is a lot more entertaining than a tater, although I loved the '87 season.

If a 20 year old has to learn to throw a split finger just to make it to the show (and thats the only good stuff he can develop), should he really be in the show?

Hmmm... kinda like "If a tree falls in the woods..."

*PtP RiP*

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]

CBL-Commish · 03-08-2002, 06:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by civbat:
Gah! You're too fast for me. It takes me 20 minutes to edit a post while I've got people running into my little cubicle asking stupid questions. It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today

My comments about the talent pool were more a "devil's advocate" stance I enjoy taking. I've heard enough arguments defending the talent and attacking the talent, and it's just enough to keep me from making up my own mind. Please check my Edit so I know we're on the same page (I tried to correct myself).

*PtP RiP*<hr></blockquote>

That's cool. And here, it not only Friday, it's 70 degrees out. No way I'm working...

CBL-Commish · 03-08-2002, 06:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by civbat:

CBL: If a 20 year old has to learn to throw a split finger just to make it to the show (and thats the only good stuff he can develop), should he really be in the show?

Hmmm... kinda like "If a tree falls in the woods..."

*PtP RiP*

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]<hr></blockquote>

If he can get major league hitters out, to the satisfaction of his manager and coaches, he should be in the majors. I don't care if he throws eephus pitches, knuckleballs, left-handed-sidearm screwballs, or whatever.

marioh · 03-08-2002, 06:24 AM

[quote]It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today <hr></blockquote>

I've been trying to explain that fact to my boss for years now !

03-03-2002, 04:23 PM	#1
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Pitcher endurance My SP seem to be tiring faster than they did in OOTP3. The manual in v4 is abbreviated compared to v3's. v4 says an E rated SP can throw around 90 pitches, an A rated SP around 130. So those numbers are the same. But my B rated SP, for example, just got tired after throwing 100 pitches. According to the v3 manual he should be able to throw around 120, and I thought this would be the same for v4. And it wasn't due to pitches thrown for the last 5 days, because his previous start (5 days ago) he only threw 73 pitches. Anyone else experiencing this? Are the pitch counts per endurance rating different?

03-03-2002, 04:35 PM	#3
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	There is more depth to pitching fatigue in OOTP4, and I'd imagine you are seeing an example of this. I have not yet had a chance to test this but I think that may be a good thing . I believe pitchers will now tire gradually and get progressively worse the more tired they are - the exact point at which they get tired will be related to their stamina rating but perhaps less predictable than it was in v3, which is not a bad thing either. Had your B rated SP pitched in the last 5 days or had he had plenty of rest? __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

03-08-2002, 04:30 AM	#9
VT Os fan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia Tech (Blacksburg, Virginia) Posts: 226	I have the same issue with reliever's endurance. My mop-up guy with an A RD gets tired after 35 pithces the day after the all-star break and only 20 pitches thrown in the last 5 days. I occasionally let this guy in for another inning or two, but I've had pitchers get injured by making them face an extra batter once they hit "red". [quote]Originally posted by Broth32: <strong>B.Colon's endurance is a B and he gets tired around 95-100 pitches (with 5 days rest) Maybe Markus will look into this in the next patch. </strong><hr></blockquote> If, as others have speculated, being tired does not equal being "out of gas" perhaps there could be two colors for a pitcher's tiredness indicater, like a pink or amber for "getting tired" and the red for "totally spent". This might even be reflected in the rotation where taking a pitcher to the limit requires 4 days rest to be ready again while otherwise he could potentially go on 3 days rest. __________________ "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." -- Ayn Rand

03-08-2002, 04:40 AM	#10
marioh All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 1,162	Interesting. I haven't seen this problem running 4a. I've had pitchers pitch 120-130 pitches in a game (B and A rated). I've had relievers that had pitch counts in almost every day (the 5 day pitch count in profile page) and not be tired. I typically carry 11 pitchers though (5 SP, 6 R). __________________ RZA - "I'm me and the me that's me is me and is going to continue to be me"

03-08-2002, 05:27 AM	#14
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	[quote]Originally posted by civbat: <strong>Having said that, I'm a firm believer that present pitchers are complete wimps. A 5 man rotation is a sign of a poor pitching staff. A team needs 4 starters that can go for 38+ starts, 15 complete games, and ~300 innings pitched. PtP RiP</strong><hr></blockquote> Believe what you want, but that's never been the case, at least since Ruth came along and made every at bat a scoring opportunity. Even in the 60s, the days of high mounds, the huge strike zone, and bigger ballparks there'd usually only be a couple of pitchers in the whole leauge with 300 IPs. Before the 50s or 60s there were many more doubleheaders and a strict four man rotation was basically impossible. Look at the great Yankee teams of the 50s. A typical year was 1955, when they had nine guys start at least 6 games, and only two pitchers threw 200 innings. Or the '27 Yanks - seven guys started at least nine games, and only one had more than 210 innings pitched. The '50 Phillies had Robin Roberts throw 304 innings. But no one else had more than 209. The idea that old timer pitchers were supermen is a myth. Don't change the game to try and simulate fiction. [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: CBL-Commish ]</p> __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

03-03-2002, 04:31 PM	#2
Andy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 2,270	I have noticed this with my starters too.

03-03-2002, 04:47 PM	#4
countrystan Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 14	I was just going to post something about pitcher's endurance. It's definitely NOT more lifelike than in OOTP3. I haven't had a pitcher go more than 100 pitches (on full rest) without being tired. I even notice in simulating games that guys like maddux go 7 2/3 with a shutout and 98 pitches thrown. Maybe the game knows its early in the season and doesn't want to burn them out! GREAT GAME THOUGH. My wife might leave me, however...

03-03-2002, 04:54 PM	#5
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	You might be right Killebrew. The times that this has happened, they will turn red, but I inevitably leave them in at least an extra inning (sometimes 2). They still pitch pretty well, sometimes very well. But, I did this in OOTP3 too and they would often pitch well 20 pitches after their "red count". It's hard to tell if they were just getting lucky.

03-07-2002, 01:18 PM	#6
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	Before posting my concern I searched and found this thread.....the foul ball option is playing havoc with my bullpen...I have gone into games with my entire bullpen tired...this was never an issue in OOTP3...unless a future patch addresses this I will do my own workaround and increase all my reliever's endurance by one level...I suggest others do the same...

03-08-2002, 03:37 AM	#7
countrystan Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 14	Foul balls do not wreak any sort of havoc on the pitcher's endurance. I am finding the same number of pitches thrown (I have NOT, as others have reported, seen each foul ball increase pitch count by 4, 5 pitchers, etc). I think it's just that each different rating can now through 15-20 less pitches. I am the Yankees and I have ONE complete game through June...

03-08-2002, 03:55 AM	#8
Broth32 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: C-Town Posts: 385	I feel the same way about the P's endurance. I have played every game so far into the Cleveland Indians season (about 30 games) and have yet to have a SP go into the 8th inning. B.Colon's endurance is a B and he gets tired around 95-100 pitches (with 5 days rest) Maybe Markus will look into this in the next patch.

03-08-2002, 04:46 AM	#11
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	i have to disagree...i think endurance directly reflects a players ability in this game. i have thrown 3 or 4 complete games and have played one and a half months of baseball. you guys need to realize that 100 pitches isnt always that easy to throw. if your pitcher is at 100 by the 5th inning, then he's gonna be tired. i had wells pitch a complete game...his stamina is a C, he didnot get tired. the secret, he pitched only 97 pitches. good forhim! but two starts after that hes gone only as far as the 6th b/c he is at the 100 mark by the 5th. thats his fault. wat i do feel needs to be done is a new rating. maybe somethin like the likelyhood of throwng strikes and puttin the ball in play. randy johnson would be low b/c he's so dominating that the ball is NEVER in play...BUT maybe a finesse pitcher like brad radke or andy pettitte would prefer for the hitter to make contact, therefore decreasing the number of pitches thrown.

03-08-2002, 04:48 AM	#12
civbat Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 28	How could it possibly make a better sim if we know when a pitcher is "out of gas"? If your starter gets "touched-up" in the 8th inning, guess what? He's out of gas. I don't like seeing the pitcher's name change colours. I'd prefer to use the pitch count to measure a pitcher's remaining stamina. Having said that, I'm a firm believer that present pitchers are complete wimps. A 5 man rotation is a sign of a poor pitching staff. A team needs 4 starters that can go for 38+ starts, 15 complete games, and ~300 innings pitched. PtP RiP

03-08-2002, 05:17 AM	#13
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	hmmm...once again i have to disagree. i feel really bad for those pitchers that threw complete games all the time and threw like 500 innings a year, some more than that. we have to remember that back then managers and trainers werent as smart as they are now. and most of the time its not up to the pitcher. ask the pitcher if he wants to come out of a game...i bet he'd say no! managers have to save their investments and make sure that they have them for later on in the season. pitchers arent wimps, it takes alot to throw a 90mph fastball, change it up with a 76mph string, and then flick that wrist to throw a 85 slider in the dirt. it takes alot of work. pitchers years ago didnt throw the pitches that pitchers throw today and the pitches of today put alot of stress on shoulders and wrist. thats one reason why injuries are so high now. look at splitters, it could make your career as it is (in my opinion) the hardest pitch to hit BUT it could also end your career in the matter of seconds. pitching is tough today and alot of strategy goes into a 5 man rotation and saving that starter for important games.

03-08-2002, 05:41 AM	#15
civbat Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 28	Well I certainly agree that it takes a lot of talent and skill to throw the pitches that present day pitchers do. I have never thought that current pitchers, in general, are without talent. However I think you may be assuming that the current pitching crop have _more_ talent than the pitchers of a couple decades ago, and I disagree completely with that. I would trade 2 Perdro Matinez's for one Nolan Ryan any day. You keep your Andy Pettite because I want Jack Morris. I find a lot more value in a 3.50era in 280+ IP vs a 2.50era in 180+ IP. Couldn't it be construed that a pitcher has to learn to throw the split finger because he doesn't have the talent to compete otherwise? Might it also be thought that MLB organizations are pressuring their minor league players to learn new pitching techniques because the talent pool is nearly dry? Ah, just personal preferences really. But it's becoming difficult for me to think that today's star players are actually playing the same game that my hero's played only 20 years ago, and perhaps I should stop trying to compare them. EDIT: OK, OK. To appease CBL-Commish, and any one else that was offended by my previous post, I should clarify my stance on starting pitchers. 1) It seems I gave the impression that starting pitchers all pitched 300 or more innings. No, no. My apologies. However I disagree with CBL that they were rare. 300 was a bad number to use, does 272.2 sound better? 2) I also gave the impression that teams only had 4 starters. Once again please accept my apology. I clearly remember the 5th man as the guy that started 12 or 17 games a year but was never considered part of the starting rotation (in general, not a golden rule). The 5th man was the spot starter. Now the spot starter is the 6th man, and the 5th man has a permanent home in the rotation and I don't see this as being better for baseball. Better for the union, but not baseball. PtP RiP [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]</p>

03-08-2002, 05:56 AM	#16
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	[quote]Originally posted by civbat: <strong>Well I certainly agree that it takes a lot of talent and skill to throw the pitches that present day pitchers do. I have never thought that current pitchers, in general, are without talent. However I think you may be assuming that the current pitching crop have _more_ talent than the pitchers of a couple decades ago, and I disagree completely with that. I would trade 2 Perdro Matinez's for one Nolan Ryan any day. You keep your Andy Pettite because I want Jack Morris. I find a lot more value in a 3.50era in 280+ IP vs a 2.50era in 180+ IP. Couldn't it be construed that a pitcher has to learn to throw the split finger because he doesn't have the talent to compete otherwise? Might it also be thought that MLB organizations are pressuring their minor league players to learn new pitching techniques because the talent pool is nearly dry? Ah, just personal preferences really. But it's becoming difficult for me to think that today's star players are actually playing the same game that my hero's played only 20 years ago, and perhaps I should stop trying to compare them. PtP RiP</strong><hr></blockquote> I don't think today's pitchers are any more talented, but I do think they are better conditioned, have coaches who better understand biomechanics and what causes stress and strain on an arm, and they have better resources - like videotape, detailed pitch/hit charting for every batter, etc. I agree Pedro, piching 180 innings, is probably not as valuable as Nolan throwing 300 innings with a little higher ERA. But, Pedro throwing 217 innings with a sub-2.00 ERA in Fenway in a league that averages 5 runs/game is more valuable than Nolan throwing 330 Innings in the Astrodome with a 2.89 ERA in a league that allows less than 3.5 runs a game. That's Pedro's 2000 season comp'ed with Nolan's '74. There's no way the talent pool is dry. In 1960 there were 16 major league teams drawing mostly from the ~150 million people in the good ol' USA. Today there are 30 teams drawing from 280 million Americans, plus almost as many Dominicans, Mexicans, Japanese, Australians, Koreans, Canadians, Central Americans, Cubans, Arubans, etc, etc. If all the new Camden Yards/Enron/Ballpark at Arlington/Tropicana fields had been built like Safeco and Comerica (instead of the bandboxes they are) you'd be wondering why there was such a shortage of hitting. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

03-08-2002, 06:10 AM	#17
civbat Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 28	Gah! You're too fast for me. It takes me 20 minutes to edit a post while I've got people running into my little cubicle asking stupid questions. It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today My comments about the talent pool were more a "devil's advocate" stance I enjoy taking. I've heard enough arguments defending the talent and attacking the talent, and it's just enough to keep me from making up my own mind. Please check my Edit so I know we're on the same page (I tried to correct myself). Nah, you assume too much regarding ballpark size. I'm a bit backwards in that I believe a whiff is a lot more entertaining than a tater, although I loved the '87 season. If a 20 year old has to learn to throw a split finger just to make it to the show (and thats the only good stuff he can develop), should he really be in the show? Hmmm... kinda like "If a tree falls in the woods..." PtP RiP [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ] [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]</p>

03-08-2002, 06:19 AM	#18
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	[quote]Originally posted by civbat: <strong>Gah! You're too fast for me. It takes me 20 minutes to edit a post while I've got people running into my little cubicle asking stupid questions. It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today My comments about the talent pool were more a "devil's advocate" stance I enjoy taking. I've heard enough arguments defending the talent and attacking the talent, and it's just enough to keep me from making up my own mind. Please check my Edit so I know we're on the same page (I tried to correct myself). PtP RiP</strong><hr></blockquote> That's cool. And here, it not only Friday, it's 70 degrees out. No way I'm working... __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

03-08-2002, 06:21 AM	#19
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	[quote]Originally posted by civbat: <strong> CBL: If a 20 year old has to learn to throw a split finger just to make it to the show (and thats the only good stuff he can develop), should he really be in the show? Hmmm... kinda like "If a tree falls in the woods..." PtP RiP [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: civbat ]</strong><hr></blockquote> If he can get major league hitters out, to the satisfaction of his manager and coaches, he should be in the majors. I don't care if he throws eephus pitches, knuckleballs, left-handed-sidearm screwballs, or whatever. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

03-08-2002, 06:24 AM	#20
marioh All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 1,162	[quote]It's Friday, I'm not supposed to work today <hr></blockquote> I've been trying to explain that fact to my boss for years now ! __________________ RZA - "I'm me and the me that's me is me and is going to continue to be me"