Hey Ma! During Spring Training, I forgot how to play the field!

autarkis33 · 04-05-2003, 03:59 AM

Well, the first ST of BPLA history just finished and something funny (well not to the owners, but...) happened to 7 players in the league.

Apparently these players were all horrid defensive players (E rated) before ST. Each of these players had 0 points allocated in their defense category for training and...

Now they have no idea how to play any position!!

They have completely forgotten how to play the field at every position.

My three questions are --

1) Has this always happened in OOTP? Or is this a v5 thing?
2) How can these players relearn that defense? Can they just allocate points back into defense next ST, or would they have to teach them the postition again?
3) Would it be fair of me to give these players back a rating of E in their base position (or perhaps first since it is the easiest position to play)? The owners did take those points away and used them to develop another skill, and editing would be like giving them 5 extra points for each of those players...

Treches · 04-05-2003, 04:03 AM

1) Since Spring Training was implemented (V3?).
2) I know they eventually get 1B ratings (E) by playing as 1B. Don't know about different positions.

bigphesta · 04-05-2003, 05:32 AM

No it would not be fair. This is the GM's abusing the system. Heck, if you give back their defense to "E's" why doesnt' every team with an E rated player take all his defense and then give it to hitting only to have his E defense rating granted back to you. Those GM's KNEW what they were doing. Dont' let them fool you. They got to use their 5 defense points to strengthen their hitting. Only give them their E rating back if they take a cut in Avg or HR talents (the higher of the two)

I Am The Game · 04-05-2003, 06:18 AM

1) Yea it has
2) I assume if you play them somewhere they'll learn a position
3) Nope, they turned these players into a DH to increase their hitting. Now they live with it.

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 06:44 AM

If a guy loses his defense in spring training i put it back to E, but we only allow ask coaches or all 5's so it's a horse of a differant color really.

My opinion would probably be to just give him an E back anyways. The person can just teach him a new position in the minor leagues to get a range back and I find the 5 star rating these players get annoying.

Unfortunatly theres not much deterance for this sort of thing outside of making point allocation rules.

I Am The Game · 04-05-2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
If a guy loses his defense in spring training i put it back to E, but we only allow ask coaches or all 5's so it's a horse of a differant color really.

My opinion would probably be to just give him an E back anyways. The person can just teach him a new position in the minor leagues to get a range back and I find the 5 star rating these players get annoying.

Unfortunatly theres not much deterance for this sort of thing outside of making point allocation rules.

Yea but if he teaches him a new position in the minor leagues, it still slows down development a bit. Seems like more of a "punishment", because basically giving him that E back means he just improved the other parts of his game without sacrificing a thing. If you absolutely have to give that E back, give him a .900 fielding pct or something.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by point allocation rules. Could you elaborate on that?

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 07:01 AM

I don't really feel like teaching new positions in the minors hampers development much, but yeah, I do see your point on the poor fielding % issue. Certainly not giving them the E back is an option too. I just find it completely unrealistic that a guy would completely forget how to play a position, outside of Chuck Knoblauch.

As for point allocation rules, that is entirely up to you. Only allow default 5's or ask coaches, or something where you don't let people drop their defense under 5 during spring training, dunno, just throwing some ideas out there. I dont think there is currently a real good solution to this problem if you wanna give owners free reign during spring training.

Edit: I guess deterance wasn't the best way to put it, as these things would probably be filed under prevention.

autarkis33 · 04-05-2003, 07:27 AM

I think what I am going to do is just leave the players as is, for if the players can be played at first and eventually receive a rating there, that is what they can do.

I appreciate the idea about point allocation rules, but I don't care for things like this. The way I look at it, if an owner/GM wants to wreck a player to try and get something, its their choice. I've also seen plenty of players play a lot of time in a position they are not rated for. They don't get to a lot of balls, but they don't look completely foolish. And their are players in the majors even that are players that really shouldn't be rated anywhere (Jack Cust, anybody?).

I don't really think any of these owners had the intent of gaining something for nothing when they did this, but I do think they get what they paid for.

And while I don't necessarily buy the losing of all fielding ratings, I can see how a player might really go to crap in the field if they didn't play at all their, especially if they were really bad to begin with.

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 07:34 AM

Hey, even Cust gets an E.

Not a bad call, spring training effects are debateable anyways so even if the player was a poor range, poor % SS or something and they had figured to turn him into a 1b anyways there really isn't a whole lot to gain from it.

autarkis33 · 04-05-2003, 07:39 AM

Cust gets an E for effort maybe, but I saw some footage of him playing the outfield in the minors a couple of years ago, and WOW!! One legged midgets with clubbed feet move around better than that guy does...

Seriously though, thanks for all the input guys.

Johnny Slick · 04-05-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
I don't really feel like teaching new positions in the minors hampers development much, but yeah, I do see your point on the poor fielding % issue. Certainly not giving them the E back is an option too. I just find it completely unrealistic that a guy would completely forget how to play a position, outside of Chuck Knoblauch.

I disagree. In fact, I'd say that it's completely unrealistic for a player who concentrates only on his hitting to *remember* how to play a position he last played several years ago. Edgar Martinez, for example, was interviewed a couple years ago about playing regularly in the field and he said that he'd have to completely re-work his workout regimen and that it would probably take him an entire offseason to get ready to play 1st or 3rd for more than a game or two a year.

In general, it's not like guys who move to DH full-time move back out to the field very often.

John Craven

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 01:37 PM

Edgar Martinez was hampered by injuries and went to DH to prolong his career.

Not the victim of one bad spring training in the field.

Sudy Nym · 04-05-2003, 01:51 PM

Wait- teaching new positions in the minors hampers offensive development? What?

Steve Kuffrey · 04-05-2003, 02:09 PM

Can.....it is possible and is in the game to keep GM's from training players to play every position and keep super-star hitting ratings.

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Can.....it is possible and is in the game to keep GM's from training players to play every position and keep super-star hitting ratings.

Just out curiosity, do the negative effects not come into effect until after you have received the message that the player isn't learning the position and it may effect his hitting?

Or

Can it start affecting his hitting from day 1 of trying to teach a new position.

Steve Kuffrey · 04-05-2003, 02:34 PM

I'm not certain but I would say that not until you get the message, but I'm not sure. I say this because it does not happen to every player or every situation.

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 02:35 PM

Thanks Steve, I had always assumed the same.

Johnny Slick · 04-05-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
Edgar Martinez was hampered by injuries and went to DH to prolong his career.

Not the victim of one bad spring training in the field.

In 1994, Edgar Martinez was definitely still able to play third base. He hasn't played the position at all since then. At what point would *you* say that he couldn't play it anymore? Watching him, I'd say he was no longer able to play 3rd for more than a game or two by around 1996. I'd have ranked him probably a C (maybe a D, but he was actually not a bad fielder when he got hurt) going into 1993; that's a drop of 3 grades (from C to nothing) in 3 years.

Works for me.

John Craven

BleacherBum · 04-05-2003, 03:08 PM

I ran into this last year, and check out what occurred once the guy "forgot" how to play any position...

http://www.400studios.com/board/show...&threadid=4846

clarnzz · 04-05-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Slick
At what point would *you* say that he couldn't play it anymore?

I would say the point when they decided it would be best for Edgar to not play third base anymore was after the hamstring tears in 93 and 94.

The first one may have done it, but the second all but assured his career as a DH in my opinion.

04-05-2003, 03:59 AM	#1
autarkis33 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 247	Hey Ma! During Spring Training, I forgot how to play the field! Well, the first ST of BPLA history just finished and something funny (well not to the owners, but...) happened to 7 players in the league. Apparently these players were all horrid defensive players (E rated) before ST. Each of these players had 0 points allocated in their defense category for training and... Now they have no idea how to play any position!! They have completely forgotten how to play the field at every position. My three questions are -- 1) Has this always happened in OOTP? Or is this a v5 thing? 2) How can these players relearn that defense? Can they just allocate points back into defense next ST, or would they have to teach them the postition again? 3) Would it be fair of me to give these players back a rating of E in their base position (or perhaps first since it is the easiest position to play)? The owners did take those points away and used them to develop another skill, and editing would be like giving them 5 extra points for each of those players... __________________ "I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell" Commissioner of the <A HREF="http://www.bpla-ootp.com">BPLA</A> GM of the Iowa Crop Circles in <A HREF="http://www.dpbl.net/potd">POTD</A> Manager of the Lennongrad Coleopteras in <A HREF="http://beta.simleagues.com">Beta Baseball</A> Only HOF Leftfielder in LBL - 2nd career AVG, 3B's and SB's - 3rd in Hits and HR's

04-05-2003, 04:03 AM	#2
Treches Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Damned Hell Posts: 2,150	1) Since Spring Training was implemented (V3?). 2) I know they eventually get 1B ratings (E) by playing as 1B. Don't know about different positions. __________________ The Computer Baseball League

04-05-2003, 07:01 AM	#7
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	I don't really feel like teaching new positions in the minors hampers development much, but yeah, I do see your point on the poor fielding % issue. Certainly not giving them the E back is an option too. I just find it completely unrealistic that a guy would completely forget how to play a position, outside of Chuck Knoblauch. As for point allocation rules, that is entirely up to you. Only allow default 5's or ask coaches, or something where you don't let people drop their defense under 5 during spring training, dunno, just throwing some ideas out there. I dont think there is currently a real good solution to this problem if you wanna give owners free reign during spring training. Edit: I guess deterance wasn't the best way to put it, as these things would probably be filed under prevention. Last edited by clarnzz; 04-05-2003 at 07:26 AM.

04-05-2003, 07:27 AM	#8
autarkis33 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 247	I think what I am going to do is just leave the players as is, for if the players can be played at first and eventually receive a rating there, that is what they can do. I appreciate the idea about point allocation rules, but I don't care for things like this. The way I look at it, if an owner/GM wants to wreck a player to try and get something, its their choice. I've also seen plenty of players play a lot of time in a position they are not rated for. They don't get to a lot of balls, but they don't look completely foolish. And their are players in the majors even that are players that really shouldn't be rated anywhere (Jack Cust, anybody?). I don't really think any of these owners had the intent of gaining something for nothing when they did this, but I do think they get what they paid for. And while I don't necessarily buy the losing of all fielding ratings, I can see how a player might really go to crap in the field if they didn't play at all their, especially if they were really bad to begin with. __________________ "I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell" Commissioner of the <A HREF="http://www.bpla-ootp.com">BPLA</A> GM of the Iowa Crop Circles in <A HREF="http://www.dpbl.net/potd">POTD</A> Manager of the Lennongrad Coleopteras in <A HREF="http://beta.simleagues.com">Beta Baseball</A> Only HOF Leftfielder in LBL - 2nd career AVG, 3B's and SB's - 3rd in Hits and HR's

04-05-2003, 07:39 AM	#10
autarkis33 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 247	Cust gets an E for effort maybe, but I saw some footage of him playing the outfield in the minors a couple of years ago, and WOW!! One legged midgets with clubbed feet move around better than that guy does... Seriously though, thanks for all the input guys. __________________ "I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell" Commissioner of the <A HREF="http://www.bpla-ootp.com">BPLA</A> GM of the Iowa Crop Circles in <A HREF="http://www.dpbl.net/potd">POTD</A> Manager of the Lennongrad Coleopteras in <A HREF="http://beta.simleagues.com">Beta Baseball</A> Only HOF Leftfielder in LBL - 2nd career AVG, 3B's and SB's - 3rd in Hits and HR's

04-05-2003, 05:32 AM	#3
bigphesta Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 1,366	No it would not be fair. This is the GM's abusing the system. Heck, if you give back their defense to "E's" why doesnt' every team with an E rated player take all his defense and then give it to hitting only to have his E defense rating granted back to you. Those GM's KNEW what they were doing. Dont' let them fool you. They got to use their 5 defense points to strengthen their hitting. Only give them their E rating back if they take a cut in Avg or HR talents (the higher of the two)

04-05-2003, 06:18 AM	#4
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	1) Yea it has 2) I assume if you play them somewhere they'll learn a position 3) Nope, they turned these players into a DH to increase their hitting. Now they live with it.

04-05-2003, 06:44 AM	#5
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	If a guy loses his defense in spring training i put it back to E, but we only allow ask coaches or all 5's so it's a horse of a differant color really. My opinion would probably be to just give him an E back anyways. The person can just teach him a new position in the minor leagues to get a range back and I find the 5 star rating these players get annoying. Unfortunatly theres not much deterance for this sort of thing outside of making point allocation rules.

04-05-2003, 07:34 AM	#9
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Hey, even Cust gets an E. Not a bad call, spring training effects are debateable anyways so even if the player was a poor range, poor % SS or something and they had figured to turn him into a 1b anyways there really isn't a whole lot to gain from it.

04-05-2003, 01:37 PM	#12
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Edgar Martinez was hampered by injuries and went to DH to prolong his career. Not the victim of one bad spring training in the field.

04-05-2003, 01:51 PM	#13
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	Wait- teaching new positions in the minors hampers offensive development? What? __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

04-05-2003, 02:09 PM	#14
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	Can.....it is possible and is in the game to keep GM's from training players to play every position and keep super-star hitting ratings. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

04-05-2003, 02:34 PM	#16
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	I'm not certain but I would say that not until you get the message, but I'm not sure. I say this because it does not happen to every player or every situation. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

04-05-2003, 02:35 PM	#17
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Thanks Steve, I had always assumed the same. Last edited by clarnzz; 04-05-2003 at 02:38 PM.

04-05-2003, 03:08 PM	#19
BleacherBum All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 672	I ran into this last year, and check out what occurred once the guy "forgot" how to play any position... http://www.400studios.com/board/show...&threadid=4846 __________________ Right Field Sucks!