Learning a New Position

[herbyhancok]

Hi, I just started playing PT and I'm trying to get a player to learn a new position. I'm trying to get Kyle Schwarber to learn catcher. He's started 16 games at C and fielded 133 innings there, but still hasn't become rated at the position. I had Hack Wilson who is a terrible centerfielder get rated a 2 at LF after one game. Does it just take forever for poorly rated players to acclimate to C? Or is this something unique to PT where guys just won't learn the position?

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by herbyhancok

Hi, I just started playing PT and I'm trying to get a player to learn a new position. I'm trying to get Kyle Schwarber to learn catcher. He's started 16 games at C and fielded 133 innings there, but still hasn't become rated at the position. I had Hack Wilson who is a terrible centerfielder get rated a 2 at LF after one game. Does it just take forever for poorly rated players to acclimate to C? Or is this something unique to PT where guys just won't learn the position?

I don't believe you can train a player at catcher if he has no ratings there. It's considered a special position. Honestly, I wouldn't want an terrible catcher anyway.....1st base, sure but not the guy handling the pitching staff.

[FancySkunk]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

I don't believe you can train a player at catcher if he has no ratings there. It's considered a special position. Honestly, I wouldn't want an terrible catcher anyway.....1st base, sure but not the guy handling the pitching staff.

Schwarber does have catcher ability/arm on his card, so he can in fact learn catcher.

The issue is that catcher takes an especially long time to learn for players. It might take an entire season before he starts showing any overall catcher defense rating.

[chazzycat]

I've had my Schwarber playing for a full season + two months now (about 1,000 IP total caught) and he's still not showing any catcher rating.

[Mormo]

Sometimes when their ratings are too low they just won't learn it. I've had that with 1b learning 3b and it never reached 1.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by Mormo

Sometimes when their ratings are too low they just won't learn it. I've had that with 1b learning 3b and it never reached 1.

Was it a lefty throwing 1B? The game is coded so left-handed throwers can't learn 2B, 3B, or SS.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Mormo

Sometimes when their ratings are too low they just won't learn it. I've had that with 1b learning 3b and it never reached 1.

Schwarber has pretty mediocre catcher ability and arm ratings (40s), but they seem like they should be decent enough to generate some catcher rating...I think there is something else going on.

[Mormo]

Originally Posted by atabakin

Was it a lefty throwing 1B? The game is coded so left-handed throwers can't learn 2B, 3B, or SS.

Probably was Lou Gehrig so yes. Thanks for this

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Schwarber has pretty mediocre catcher ability and arm ratings (40s), but they seem like they should be decent enough to generate some catcher rating...I think there is something else going on.

One of the devs a few months ago indicated that the learning curve for training catchers is painfully slow. If they have the ability and arm ratings but no positional rating, it can take at least a season and a half for a positional rating to show up. Catcher should be the toughest position to train, sure, but that seems a little extreme.

[Dogberry99]

Brian Downing wishes he had Kyle Schwarber's catching ability and arm, even if Schwarber wishes he had Downing's positional rating

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by atabakin

One of the devs a few months ago indicated that the learning curve for training catchers is painfully slow. If they have the ability and arm ratings but no positional rating, it can take at least a season and a half for a positional rating to show up. Catcher should be the toughest position to train, sure, but that seems a little extreme.

Huh, OK. My Schwarber should have passed the 1.5 season mark as of last night, but I didn't look this morning. I'll check again this evening.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Huh, OK. My Schwarber should have passed the 1.5 season mark as of last night, but I didn't look this morning. I'll check again this evening.

Found the thread: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...aldson+catcher

[Mizzery]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Schwarber has pretty mediocre catcher ability and arm ratings (40s), but they seem like they should be decent enough to generate some catcher rating...I think there is something else going on.

Can’t speak to how long it will take, but this is the critical point. Schwarber when fully trained as a C will have a peak rating of 36 as a C. At that level, he will hurt you more defensively than he will help you by getting an extra bat in the lineup.

You can play a good bat, bad defense player at 1B or LF without hurting too much, but critical defensive positions like C, SS and CF are best manned by superior defenders, even if it comes with some trade off of offense.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Mizzery

Can’t speak to how long it will take, but this is the critical point. Schwarber when fully trained as a C will have a peak rating of 36 as a C. At that level, he will hurt you more defensively than he will help you by getting an extra bat in the lineup.

You can play a good bat, bad defense player at 1B or LF without hurting too much, but critical defensive positions like C, SS and CF are best manned by superior defenders, even if it comes with some trade off of offense.

Yeah I'm not expecting a great defender by any stretch. I'm kind of testing a hypothesis of mine that goes something like this:


- catcher ability mainly affects strikeout-to-walk ratios (framing)
- so if a team's pitching staff is designed to minimize both strikeouts and walks, relying on groundballs, this would also minimize the impact of a bad defensive catcher.


The team he is on is set up exactly that way. Also, with max HR factors and minimum AVG factors, playing to his strengths. The whole offense is 3-true-outcome type players. So far his defense has not hurt me very badly. (-4 ZR last season, which is like half a win, easily outweighed by his offensive contribution.)

[Argonaut]

Anybody know if position rating experience "decays" like it does in regular OOTP? Or once you train a position on a card, it keeps the experience forever? What if you sell a card on auction, does it keep that experience?

[chazzycat]

it doesn't decay, and does keep it's experience when sold.

The only time you lose defensive rating is after the entry pool. That training in entry pool doesn't "stick" but after that it will.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by Argonaut

Anybody know if position rating experience "decays" like it does in regular OOTP? Or once you train a position on a card, it keeps the experience forever? What if you sell a card on auction, does it keep that experience?

Once you train the position, the card maintains that experience. Cards keep the experience when you buy/sell them. If you buy a card, wait till the next simulation runs and check your new card again... you may be pleasantly surprised to find that the card has received training at other positions!

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by atabakin

Once you train the position, the card maintains that experience. Cards keep the experience when you buy/sell them. If you buy a card, wait till the next simulation runs and check your new card again... you may be pleasantly surprised to find that the card has received training at other positions!

There have been some instances where the experience showed up immediately. In other cases, a card I purchased did not show any evidence of previous usage (both stats and positional ratings) until the next season after acquisition. I do not have any clue what triggers its appearance, but it is never truly lost.



Additionally, a player like Schwarber can bring unique positional flexibility to your team. Depending on how it is built, a positional rating at catcher - even a poor one - could prove invaluable, especially in conjunction with his ability to play effectively elsewhere.

[herbyhancok]

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

Additionally, a player like Schwarbercan bring unique positional flexibility to your team. Depending on how it is built, a positional rating at catcher - even a poor one - could prove invaluable, especially in conjunction with his ability to play effectively elsewhere.

Shhhhhhh. Now they're on to me.


Also I tried simming a game real quick, after I asked the question, to see how long it takes in the normal game. I took a year, and two-three months for him to be rated. One month he went from zero the next to like, 23 I believe. Something around 1250 innings I believe it was. I've trained poor catchers before in OOTP, but not one who was previously unrated. I believe that's the big difference, it takes quite a while for the initial breakthrough.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by Mormo

Sometimes when their ratings are too low they just won't learn it. I've had that with 1b learning 3b and it never reached 1.

my experiece is if a 1b is lower than 50, they will not learn any new position.
based on Gil Hodges, Johnny Mize in PT19