Expansion Process

[GoPedro99]

When you expand a league there should be the option to do it instantly but also a way to do it like it would happen in real life. announce it on a certain date and start a process.
after a certain ammountof time have the names and locations announced.
then have the stadiums announced. then minor league teams.
stuff like how it would happen in real life because in real life it wouldn't happen overnight.

[BigRed75]

I like this. Another advantage would be the opportunity to participate in a Rule 4 draft (and sign minor league free agents) the season before the expansion draft.

So say you were going to start play in 2018. The game would let you participate in the 2017 draft and give you, say, a short-season A and a rookie league team in June 2017, before the expansion draft after the 2017 season.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by GoPedro99

When you expand a league there should be the option to do it instantly but also a way to do it like it would happen in real life. announce it on a certain date and start a process.
after a certain ammountof time have the names and locations announced.
then have the stadiums announced. then minor league teams.
stuff like how it would happen in real life because in real life it wouldn't happen overnight.

You can do this now. That's the beauty of OOTP, the customization. Just write the news articles yourself on the dates you want the announcements made.

I understand you'd prefer to have the game do it automatically, but you have to realize those types of stories/news are all written by hand. It takes a lot of work and thought to write articles that say the same thing but don't sound repetitive. I've written some of the articles you see in the game now, and it isn't as simple as it sounds

Maybe we'll get there though, as it would be a nice addition to the news.

[BigRed75]

It's not the same thing, writing news articles, because for a lot of the functionality That goes along with the expansion process you actually need a team in the league. Things like hiring GMs and managers, drafting farmhands, getting a stadium and minor league teams assigned - you need an actual team in the league to do that.

It's all well and good to for me to write a news article saying I've hired De Jon Watson to be the GM of my expansion team starting next year, but what if the AI goes and hires him for another team before the season ends and I'm able to do the actual expansion?

I read it that the OP wants a bit more than just news articles. I could be wrong, though, but I know I'd like to see a bit more than just news articles myself.

[CrescentMoonie]

I doubt this ever happens as they can't even get minor league affiliates right in the expansion process as it is.

Sadly, the OOTP folks care more about making cosmetic changes every year while ignoring glaring flaws like expansion teams not having full season affiliates at the A level. I'm glad I only spent $1 on this year's version as AAA, AA, A+, A-, A-, R, R is still there for expansion teams and is still inexcusable.

[mitchkenn]

the minors were just released last year, and i admit they have some intrinsic problems - but there are some fixes (i hear) in the works. Also, i was informed there were no beta testers last year before release. Possibly something people who are unhappy with current state of the minors should consider?

i expect changes, for the better, though it will most likely still be a work in progress. These are just my expectations. i haven't been informed of anything officially or unofficially beyond the need for beta testers.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I doubt this ever happens as they can't even get minor league affiliates right in the expansion process as it is.

The number of minor league affiliates an expansion club had has differed in each of MLB's six expansions. There was no one universal process.

[BigRed75]

Yes, but I get what CrescentMoonie is saying. The expansion teams should be set up to have one affiliate at each minor league level, not three full-season affiliates and four short-season affiliates.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The number of minor league affiliates an expansion club had has differed in each of MLB's six expansions. There was no one universal process.

Irrelevant. There is NOBODY in the freaking majors that doesn't have a AAA, AA, A+, A, A-, and R team at least. Somehow these guys can't get that right for expansion. There's no excuse for having code that generates nobody at the A level and generates two A- and R teams for each club with both of those teams being in the same short season and rookie leagues. It's absurd that something that simple isn't properly implemented.

[OBSL Commish]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Irrelevant. There is NOBODY in the freaking majors that doesn't have a AAA, AA, A+, A, A-, and R team at least. Somehow these guys can't get that right for expansion. There's no excuse for having code that generates nobody at the A level and generates two A- and R teams for each club with both of those teams being in the same short season and rookie leagues. It's absurd that something that simple isn't properly implemented.

Enough with the hyperbole, dude. It's not absurd that "something that simple isn't properly implemented". It is harder to code than you think, I can tell you that for sure. The fact that you think it's simple says more about your mentality than the programmers' coding skills. You have a solution to this already: you can tell the game to generate players for those teams. Simple fix. Stop being a problem and start looking for solutions.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Irrelevant. There is NOBODY in the freaking majors that doesn't have a AAA, AA, A+, A, A-, and R team at least. Somehow these guys can't get that right for expansion.

Incorrect. There are only 22 Short Season A clubs; there are 30 MLB clubs. Thus, some MLB teams do not have a Short-A affiliate. This is compensated by having an affiliate in the Appalachian or Pioneer Leagues, and/or an affiliate in the AZL or GCL. Some clubs have a Short-A affiliate as well as one or even two Rookie-class affiliates. The one-to-one ratio of parent club to affiliate only exists through the four full-season classifications.

Furthermore, as stated previously, when MLB teams get their minor league affiliates has varied over the years. That said, generally speaking, a Triple-A affiliate is added the same year the expansion club takes the field; the Double-A affiliate is added in the expansion club's second season.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

It's absurd that something that simple isn't properly implemented.

Are you a programmer? Do you really understand how coding works? I am sure this sounds "simple" in your mind, but in reality when coding software the "simplest" things tend to not be as easy as you would like them to be. I have worked as a software tester for 12+ years at a couple different software companies, and any software developer will tell you that making a change to logic is not as easy and simple as you want it.

As stated in other threads, there are workarounds to get things they way (you think) they should be. And I am sure there will be opportunities to help beta test the next version.

I guess you're one of those users that thinks posting the same thing over and over will make it all better....You're a special little snowflake aren't you.....

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Irrelevant. There is NOBODY in the freaking majors that doesn't have a AAA, AA, A+, A, A-, and R team at least.

Here's how it looked in 2007. (Didn't feel like spending a lot of time rooting through my files, so I used the first season I found.)

     AAA AA  A-H A-L A-S R-A  R
ARI   1   1   1   1   1   1   -
ATL   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
BAL   1   1   1   1   1   1   1
BOS   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
CHN   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
CHA   1   1   1   1   -   2   -
CIN   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
CLE   1   1   1   1   1       1
COL   1   1   1   1   1   1   -
DET   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
FLO   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
HOU   1   1   1   1   1   1   -
KCA   1   1   1   1   -   2   1
ANA   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
LAN   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
MIL   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
MIN   1   1   1   1   -   1   1
NYN   1   1   1   1   1   1   1
NYA   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
OAK   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
PHI   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
PIT   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
SLN   1   1   1   1   1   1   1
SDN   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
SFN   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
SEA   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
TBA   1   1   1   1   1   1   -
TEX   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
TOR   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
WAS   1   1   1   1   1   -   1
     30  30  30  30  22  17  25

Thus:

• 3 clubs had 1 Short-A, 1 Rookie Advanced, 1 Rookie affiliates
• 4 clubs had a 1 Short-A. 1 Rookie Advanced, 0 Rookie affiliates
• 15 clubs had 1 Short-A, 0 Rookie Advanced, 1 Rookie affiliates
• 6 clubs had 0 Short-A, 1 Rookie Advanced, 1 Rookie affiliates
• 1 club had 0 Short-A, 2 Rookie Advanced, 1 Rookie affiliates
• 1 club had 0 Short-A, 2 Rookie Advanced, 0 Rookie affiliates

[BigRed75]

Sorry guys, I'm still with the OP on this one. It's something that I've brought up on numerous times in the past (although more politely) and it is a problem.

Yes, LGO, the real-life expansion process adds minor league affiliates gradually. And that would be fine - if the game did it. Which it doesn't. The expansion teams are stuck with those affiliates unless/until they are manually changed. And I'm sure you can agree that giving an expansion team two SS-A affiliates AND two Rookie affiliates is ridiculous.

OBSL, I do have a programming background. And while I haven't looked at the OOTP source code, of course, I still can't fathom why the expansion process would have been coded to make the new teams' farm systems so bottom-heavy. Perhaps there is a good reason, but like I said, I can't work it out. To me, it seems like a decision that wasn't well-thought-out but hasn't been fixed because not enough people care to ask for a fix. I certainly feel like I'm in the minority in doing so.

I don't know, maybe you've looked at the code and you can tell us.

Yes, you *can* change things around manually (and goodness knows I have). But does that mean you *should* have to? It would be nice to not have to re-build the minor league systems manually, but I'm willing to do that work-around anyway in order to be happy. But it's not going to stop me from asking for a fix.

Besides, minor league expansion is so jacked up anyway (i.e. putting new International League teams in California, etc.) that I feel there will always need to be some part of manual changes required.

Anyway folks, a pleasure as always.

[BigRed75]

Sorry guys, I'm still with the OP on this one. It's something that I've brought up on numerous times in the past (although more politely) and it is a problem.

Yes, LGO, the real-life expansion process adds minor league affiliates gradually. And that would be fine - if the game did it. Which it doesn't. The expansion teams are stuck with those affiliates unless/until they are manually changed. And I'm sure you can agree that giving an expansion team two SS-A affiliates AND two Rookie affiliates is ridiculous.

OBSL, I do have a programming background. And while I haven't looked at the OOTP source code, of course, I still can't fathom why the expansion process would have been coded to make the new teams' farm systems so bottom-heavy. Perhaps there is a good reason, but like I said, I can't work it out. To me, it seems like a decision that wasn't well-thought-out but hasn't been fixed because not enough people care to ask for a fix. I certainly feel like I'm in the minority in doing so.

I don't know, maybe you've looked at the code and you can tell us.

Yes, you *can* change things around manually (and goodness knows I have). But does that mean you *should* have to? It would be nice to not have to re-build the minor league systems manually, but I'm willing to do that work-around anyway in order to be happy. But it's not going to stop me from asking for a fix.

Besides, minor league expansion is so jacked up anyway (i.e. putting new International League teams in California, etc.) that I feel there will always need to be some part of manual changes required.

Anyway folks, a pleasure as always.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

Besides, minor league expansion is so jacked up anyway (i.e. putting new International League teams in California, etc.) that I feel there will always need to be some part of manual changes required.

Fictional league creation as a whole, not to mention expansion, could surely use improvement. I agree completely with that sentiment.

[OBSL Commish]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

OBSL, I do have a programming background. And while I haven't looked at the OOTP source code, of course, I still can't fathom why the expansion process would have been coded to make the new teams' farm systems so bottom-heavy. Perhaps there is a good reason, but like I said, I can't work it out. To me, it seems like a decision that wasn't well-thought-out but hasn't been fixed because not enough people care to ask for a fix. I certainly feel like I'm in the minority in doing so.

I don't know, maybe you've looked at the code and you can tell us.

Yes, you *can* change things around manually (and goodness knows I have). But does that mean you *should* have to? It would be nice to not have to re-build the minor league systems manually, but I'm willing to do that work-around anyway in order to be happy. But it's not going to stop me from asking for a fix.

Besides, minor league expansion is so jacked up anyway (i.e. putting new International League teams in California, etc.) that I feel there will always need to be some part of manual changes required.

Anyway folks, a pleasure as always.

I agree it's still a little jacked up but, as complex a piece of software as this game is, it's not absurd that it still has bugs or features that don't work as well as they should. Every game that comes out now needs a patch or two in the first few weeks after release before it works near as it's intended to. It's the nature of the business now, I suppose. I have never looked at OOTP's code, especially since I don't have the necessary programming background to do so. I did learn machine language and C+ back in the day, but I never built upon those skills. However, I do know that, with so many features dependent upon each other to build such a complex game and to keep those features working as best as they can, sometimes the code has to be piled upon in the fastest way possible and then gone back over after beta testing and release to find and take care of the bugs. And, of course, that invariably causes something else to skew a little off. Maybe it's because there are too many subroutines and not enough predicates to thread them all correctly. I'm just spitballing, basically, but my point is, the responses by CrescentMoonie were out of line and felt troll-ish to me. He has four posts and all of them are complaining about this one thing. He bought OOTP 17 a couple weeks ago but he's an expert on the proper procedures for programming this game. I don't mind if someone has some constructive criticism about the game and actually posts some suggestions. But, someone who just complains and says certain things are"inexcusable" and "absurd" needs to be called out on his/her hyperbolic nonsense. Those aren't merely opinions anymore, they're deliberate efforts to undermine the programmers' integrity and the game's good name.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'd settle for them having 6 minor league levels instead of 5 as A Advanced and A are clearly different levels of progression as full season leagues. The fictional league option only allows 5 levels (AAA, AA, A, SA, R) so the root of the problem is whomever coded it doesn't know how many levels there are in minor league baseball.

Two SA and two R teams isn't a minor bug. 5 minor league levels instead of 6 isn't a minor bug. If you're not going to put real effort into the minor leagues, then don't release them until at least the most basic aspects are correctly done.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'd settle for them having 6 minor league levels instead of 5 as A Advanced and A are clearly different levels of progression as full season leagues. The fictional league option only allows 5 levels (AAA, AA, A, SA, R) so the root of the problem is whomever coded it doesn't know how many levels there are in minor league baseball.

Two SA and two R teams isn't a minor bug. 5 minor league levels instead of 6 isn't a minor bug. If you're not going to put real effort into the minor leagues, then don't release them until at least the most basic aspects are correctly done.

The current minor league classification system divides leagues into one of five classes, those being Triple-A (AAA), Double-A (AA), Class A (Single-A or A), Class A Short Season, and Rookie. Furthermore, Class A is further subdivided into Class A and Class A-Advanced (often called Low-A and High-A, respectively), and Rookie is further subdivided into Rookie Advanced, Complex-based Rookie and international summer baseball. Under the rules governing the affiliated minor leagues (specifically Major League Baseball Rule 51), Class A Short Season is a separate classification from the other leagues bearing the "Class A" name, despite the similarity in name.

Technically they DO have it correct, they just have not implemented the subdivided levels yet. Maybe they correct this in v18 or maybe they need to push it off another version. The point is they ARE working on it, and as mitchkenn said in an earlier post.

You really need to understand the difference between a "major" and "minor" bug. A major bug would be something that makes the software (in this case game) unusable. This clearly does not make the game unplayable or unusable, it is more a cosmetic or minor issue that they are very well aware of and I am sure will address it when they can get around to it. I am sure there is more to it than just setting a flag in the database that will split the Singe-A levels into a High and Low. That being said, there is a work around that does require some manual interaction, it may not be ideal, but once you actually put in the work you can have the game set up how you want it.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I'd settle for them having 6 minor league levels instead of 5 as A Advanced and A are clearly different levels of progression as full season leagues.

There's another good reason to have six discrete minor league levels: it fits nicely in with history, when the minors consisted of AAA, AA, A, B, C, and D classifications.

I would also suggest a special seventh level: the 'instructional' league level, or, the equivalent to the AZL and GCL. These minor leagues are different from the other affiliated leagues in that the clubs in those leagues play at the spring training complexes of their major league parents rather than at their own dedicated parks representing a given town/area, and the leagues do not track attendance nor charge admission. They are not enterprises run to try and turn a profit the way all the other minor league clubs are.