New Leagues?

[westendcards]

Has there been any new foreign or independent leagues added since 16?

[Markus Heinsohn]

No.

[Motorhead667]

Will the negro leagues ever be included?
Yes I know that you can MOD a lot of the players in already.
I'm just wondering if the leagues are in our future or because of lack of records it is too big of an undertaking. And will never be included.

[Spritze]

I need to get with BigRod on this but I think

There is enough 1890 through mid-1930's data so I am planning on at least a mod, maybe this summer. Right now it looks to be about 10,000 negro league players. OOTP would like to include the negro leagues I am sure. A few hurdles to clear.

[mitchkenn]

i'm sure you probably know about The Negro Leagues Book - edited by Dick Clark & Larry Lester. It has rosters of the Negro Leagues from the 1880's until 1955. Pretty spendy last time i saw it an Amazon though and i'm pretty certain it's out of print. Still it's an amazing source of info, if it could be found in a library. Just a heads up in case you didn't know about it.

i'd LOVE it if you and Big Rod could figure out how to get those players into the OOTP. Just a question. Would it be as a minor league, or as a feeder or a quickstart, or ???? ? If it wasn't a minor i'd have to figure out how to use those other options to get the players included into the regular game. i'm certain there are tutorials out there.

Good luck and looking forward to your progress. Thanks for the info and all your efforts. This place & you guys are amazing.

[Padreman]

Negro leagues has a lot of rich history. For many it's their heritage. Would be nice to see them included. Tho I'm from
Mexican descent my wife is African American descent I bought her a Greys trowback jersey, she loves history behind it

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Negro leagues has a lot of rich history. For many it's their heritage. Would be nice to see them included. Tho I'm from
Mexican descent my wife is African American descent I bought her a Greys trowback jersey, she loves history behind it

When i retired a year and half ago, i was going to get a Homestead Grays replica hat, but somehow a lot of other unplanned things happened and while it's still on my list of things to obtain this year, it hasn't happened quite yet.

It wasn't until i started researching baseball in my mid-40's that i discovered there was even a Negro League. Maybe it was Ted Williams hall of fame speech i read, or some research i was doing on Willie Mays and the fact he started there ... but for the last 20 years, it's been an unending story of trying to find out more and more. Can't undo the fact why and when it existed, but we can certainly celebrate the greatness of those players.

Anyway, when we can get those players into our game here, to compete head to head against the other great players of their time, it would be satisfying, for me at least.

Great bunch of people behind the game and associated with this site. Best game i've ever come across and i (as everyone here i think) keep coming back for the new and improved versions each year.

[The Wolf]

Despite what some people will tell you, there just isn't enough data to accurately recreate the Negro Leagues: it simply does not exist. Any such attempt will have to be made up of guesswork and estimates and will not be truly reality-based.

[Orioles1966]

Did The Sporting News cover the Negro Leagues?

[Spritze]

Despite what some people will tell you, there is enough data to accurately recreate the Negro Leagues.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Orioles1966

Did The Sporting News cover the Negro Leagues?

No, not really.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Despite what some people will tell you, there is enough data to accurately recreate the Negro Leagues.

Given that even the final standings of the leagues are in some dispute, I have to wonder what "accurately" means in this context.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Despite what some people will tell you, there is enough data to accurately recreate the Negro Leagues.

Well, there may be enough data, but there probably isn't enough accurate data. The record-keeping was sloppy and inconsistent. Leagues often folded in mid-season, and teams often failed to finish out their seasons. And then there's the question of whether to include statistics from non-league games. For instance, it is said that Josh Gibson hit 55 home runs in 1933. He may very well have done that, but he didn't do it in the Negro National League, which had an official season that only ran about 60 or 70 games. So that leaves the question of whether Gibson should be judged solely on his performance in league games (which probably accounted for less than half of the games that he played that year) or whether all his games should count.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Well, there may be enough data, but there probably isn't enough accurate data. The record-keeping was sloppy and inconsistent. Which is why one needs multiple sources Leagues often folded in mid-season, and teams often failed to finish out their seasons. And then there's the question of whether to include statistics from non-league games. No For instance, it is said that Josh Gibson hit 55 home runs in 1933. He may very well have done that, but he didn't do it in the Negro National League, which had an official season that only ran about 60 or 70 games. So that leaves the question of whether Gibson should be judged solely on his performance in league games (which probably accounted for less than half of the games that he played that year) or whether all his games should count.

Since every source has (very or slightly) different stats one must assume they are all true. If so, combined, they usually cover the gamut of a players record. Removes the guesswork.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Given that even the final standings of the leagues are in some dispute, I have to wonder what "accurately" means in this context.

Accurately means creating players with the skill set they had IRL. OOTP takes it from there. As you note final standings are meaningless. OOTP uses players not standings of course.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

And then there's the question of whether to include statistics from non-league games.

Both of my grandfathers played in a Negro Barnstorming game in the late 20's or early 30's in Yakima WA. The barnstormers pitcher was Bill Foster (Rube's brother). Once the barnstormers were up by 100 runs the game was called, probably due to extreme exhaustion of the Yakima outfielders. This is one of the reasons why non-league games should not count.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Since every source has (very or slightly) different stats one must assume they are all true. If so, combined, they usually cover the gamut of a players record. Removes the guesswork.

Well, Seamheads says that Josh Gibson hit .403 with 14 HR in 201 AB in 1933. BR says that he hit .341 with 6 HR in 129 AB. I'd be reluctant to call that a slight difference. Does that mean, then, that he was somewhere in the middle? I'm not sure if that's a fair assumption or an accurate reflection of his true talent.

[mitchkenn]

according to the Biographical Encyclopedia of The Negro Baseball Leagues by James A. Riley - "Gibson compiled a .354 lifetime in Negro Leagues, a .373 average for two seasons in Mexico, a .353 average for two winters in Cuba, a .412 average in exhibition games against major leagues..."

pretty consistent IMO. Anyway ..... just in case there is a question about who James A. Riley is ....


from Blackbaseball.com:
James A. Riley - Baseball Author and Historian
"Author James A. Riley is a foremost authority on the history of baseball’s Negro Baseball Leagues. His landmark reference volume, The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues (1994), is recognized as the most comprehensive work chronicling this era of baseball history."

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I'm not sure if that's a fair assumption or an accurate reflection of his true talent.

Why not? Plus you have about 20 more years of data for Mr. Gibson. Taken as a whole I'd suspect his skill set would be accurately reflected unlike a vampire in a mirror.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Orioles1966

Did The Sporting News cover the Negro Leagues?

The Sporting News wasn't exactly friendly to the Negro Leagues. So it's not surprising they didn't get or keep their stats.

In 1943 The Negro League owners decided to have independent companies keep their stats. The NNL (Negro National League) branch selected the Elias Bureau. NAL (National American League) used Howe News Bureau. Neither really changed much in the way stats were kept, because individual teams still had to get them the numbers and that was only marginally more reliable with the new companies than it was before, from what i gathered. i mean, it was better, but not on the scale of the major leagues. (i haven't searched to see if either the Elias, or Howe News sources are available on line.)