Dumbest Trade Ever?

[Hammerpants]

Hi all,

I made an account just to post this trade. Playing as the A's and I proposed a trade that the Twins would look at:

Chris Bassitt P
Ben Zobrist RF/2B

FOR

Brian Dozier

I admit, a bad trade for them, but I knew it would open up dialogue. Little did I expect this egregious counter offer:

Twins would trade Brian Dozier for the following players from the A's:

Chris Bassitt P
Ben Zobrist RF
Dan Otero P
Tyler Clippard P
Sam Fuld CF
Craig Gentry CF
Scott Kazmir P
Kendall Graveman P
Billy Burns CF
Marcus Semien SS
Drew Pomeranz P
Brett Lawrie 3B

That is like my whole team! Couldn't they just have said no?

[Number4]

That's an insulting way of saying no. "We value half your organization is worth as much as Dozier."

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

You're talking about the "make this work now" button? It's saying that any one of those players added to your original offer of Bassitt and Zobrist would make the trade happen.

[CeeBod]

On the subject of dumb trades, does anyone have any advice for how to get the AI teams to actually trade in a way that is somewhat fairly and reasonably? I've pretty much given up on trading completely as any reasonable offer I make gets the same kind of ridiculous counter you mentioned there, and it just ends up being a huge waste of time to get nowhere.

As an example, I noticed that the Marlins currently have a decimated starting rotation: their 2nd starter is 2.5stars, their 3rd and 4th are 1.5stars and their 5th is 0.5stars. They also have two other 0.5star starting pitchers that have played but are now on the DL. I have a 2 star backup that's on league minimum salary after I called him up for injury cover last year. Having added a couple of pieces from free agency, he's unlikely to get any ML playing time this year, so I thought I'd see what the Marlins would pay for him. After trying several players I'd like and being told "No way", I thought I'd start at the bottom instead, and so dropped in a no talent minor leaguer that they'll probably cut this year when the draft comes around, and the response was "You have to offer us more".... seriously?

[RJM]

It means that any one of those players will make the trade work.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by CeeBod

On the subject of dumb trades, does anyone have any advice for how to get the AI teams to actually trade in a way that is somewhat fairly and reasonably? I've pretty much given up on trading completely as any reasonable offer I make gets the same kind of ridiculous counter you mentioned there, and it just ends up being a huge waste of time to get nowhere.

I know I tried cursing and crying, but both to no avail. Maybe you need to trigger a combo, but I can't find it.

The trade AI is outrageously broken, hostile, and insulting in 16.

This is from yesterday, taken from my dynasty thread. Why write it up again? I'll just add in bold the players' position and rating in stars.

Originally Posted by Westheim

Off day on July 25. Tried to move personnel. Yet... Nobody is trading any prospects, except for the most outrageous return (read: Nick Brown SP 4.5). This is with neutral trade settings, just like I played in 12, except then trading was not such a burning pain in the backside.

Just one example, and it's not even a proper prospect. The Capitals have a 25-year old starting pitcher in AAA SP 1.0. His third pitch is crap. He is 25, so he won't get any better. His control is mucky. He will in all likelihood get lit up by major league hitting. And the Capitals are still in the hunt in the FL East. They could use a little help.

When offered Edgardo Fernandez CF 2.5, their response is "add Amador SP 3.0 or Brown". Offering Daniel Sharp 3B 3.0, they are still not happy, but would take alternatively Ford SP 3.0, Casas CL 5.0, or Quebell 1B 1.5/4.0.

Kenichi Watanabe SP 1.5 is not even remotely as terrible as their guy, and they would perhaps consider Fernandez + Sharp + Watanabe for that 25-year old future victim.

The Pacifics have three promising SP prospects. We're aiming for the least colorful of them, two stars potential. The Pacifics bitterly need major league pitching, because they are getting romped incessantly. I am offering Watanabe and Moreno, which is not enough. They ask for the usual suspects: Brown, Amador, Quebell, and Casas.

I will not trade Quebell!! I want to get rid of Al Martin 1B 2.0, so I can promote Quebell, for crying out loud!!

But they seem to be keen on a first baseman, so why not offer Martin. So it's Watanabe, Moreno RP 4.0, and Martin. They ask for one of: Amador, Brady LF/RF 4.0, Brown, Bruno RP 5.0, Casas, Ford, F. Garcia SP 3.0, Nomura 2B 1.5/3.0, Quebell, Sharp.

All the while the AI is merrily trading prospects - within reason! - with another. In July, the following prospects in the top 100 have been traded: #32, #63, #69, #74, and another half dozen ranked prospects in triple-digits.

And this is with neutral trade settings.

You ask for the least little bit, and they want not only the small finger, or the entire arm, no! Even for the most useless, pitiful, inept little scum, they want *both of your arms* ... *AND A LEG*.

Like I said. Outrageous. Should have stuck with 12.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Like I said. Outrageous. Should have stuck with 12.

If you don't like it, just change the trade difficulty setting

[Westheim]

It's the same as I had in 12, where neutral was good enough to get deals done. In 27 seasons in 12, I had two deals where I obviously ripped off the AI (funnily, involving the same player), and had numerous deals that where more or less balanced or fair, with rotten luck deciding the rest. And it was always possible to get some kind of deal done with the AI, but now it is actively after your lunch money!

And don't tell me that this trade is "neutral":

SP 0.5/2.0 for 1B 2.0, SP 1.5, RP 4.0, and another big league player is NOT neutral. It's a rip-off.

I've been trying to unload contracts for one and a half seasons now in 16 just to get retooled and end my misery in time for the good cost-controlled personnel I already have (which ain't a lot), but the ridiculous trade AI just won't let me. The trade AI has become a total joke.

[SirMichaelJordan]

and check team focus. Those matter!

Trade difficulty have gotten harder since 12.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

It's also equally important to figure out who the AI team wants to get rid of. Sometimes taking on a bad contract or an unhappy player can open up a ton of possibilities for more players -- even prospects -- to come back to you. That's where the "shop player" feature can actually be really helpful, if you see the same players offered there all the time.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Westheim

It's the same as I had in 12, where neutral was good enough to get deals done. In 27 seasons in 12, I had two deals where I obviously ripped off the AI (funnily, involving the same player), and had numerous deals that where more or less balanced or fair, with rotten luck deciding the rest. And it was always possible to get some kind of deal done with the AI, but now it is actively after your lunch money!

And don't tell me that this trade is "neutral":

SP 0.5/2.0 for 1B 2.0, SP 1.5, RP 4.0, and another big league player is NOT neutral. It's a rip-off.

I've been trying to unload contracts for one and a half seasons now in 16 just to get retooled and end my misery in time for the good cost-controlled personnel I already have (which ain't a lot), but the ridiculous trade AI just won't let me. The trade AI has become a total joke.

Teams aren't going to trade you anyone just because you want them. If it's a guy they don't want to give up, they'll ask for an exorbitant price or they won't trade them. That's exactly how it works irl as well.

You say you're unloading contracts, which makes things even more difficult. The ai is now very reluctant to take on your bad contracts unless you include some good cheap young players to sweeten the deal. Even then, they still may not take the deal because they just don't want to pay the contact. Again, this is both exactly how it works irl, and exactly how things are supposed to work.

Also, as SMJ says, after complaints about the trade ai being too easy, the levels were all adjusted to become harder. You aren't going to be able to rip off the ai quite so easily as in 12 anymore as most people were able to exploit the ai on average difficulty. It can still be done, but it'll take more work on your part, and talking to more teams.

If you want the same experience as in 12, you'll have to set the trade difficulty to easy.

[battists]

I'm not making excuses here, but . . .

Has there EVER been a computer game that had what anyone would consider "good trade AI"?

Out of everything in OOTP, that has to be one of the most complicated pieces of logic. Even when you talk about things like setting your own lineup, there's really a limited set of decisions the AI has to make. Within my roster, who has the highest OBP? Who are the power hitters? Etc. When you talk about AI roster moves, it gets a little more complicated because now the AI has to factor in its entire organization, what its needs are, and so forth.

But when it comes to trades, it has to not only factor in its own organization, it also has to factor in YOUR organization, plus current and future money implications, and so on. It also has to factor in things like "can I get a different replacement from the free agent pile, waiver wire, or some other less expensive route?" It has to try to think ahead to down-the-road implications for its club. It also has to factor in draft pick trading if that is enabled. As a computer algorithm, it essentially has to boil that all down to a number for each side. "I think my side of the trade is worth X and yours is worth Y." And if Y>X, the AI will accept the trade.

It's incredibly, incredibly fuzzy logic, and each team (in the MLB setup at least) has hundreds and hundreds of players it has to factor into the equation.

It shouldn't come as a shock to any of us that it's challenging to create an AI that not only can negotiate a trade, but that can initiate realistic trades on its own. While you can certainly count me among the people who find the OOTP trading not all that great, I have a very hard time feeling like that feature is "broken" or whatever.

Just my two cents though.

[Thunder]

Two thoughts.

1. If you want to make a deal, presumably it's good for you. There's no reason to think the AI wouldn't see it that way also and say No.

2. If it's brutally one-sided and still No, then something is amiss. I'm trying to move a very attractive player, rated as the #6 3B in the game. He's 29, coming off a 5.0 WAR season with 118 OPS+ and +12 Zone Rating, and on track for a carbon copy after two months. He's costs 3.6 mil with two more arb years left. I have a 3b prospect killing it at 3A, and am very weak at a couple spots, so it makes sense for me to move him.

I shopped him and got one offer, for an A-ball guy who was a second round draft pick last year. Anytime I try and trade for an ok major leaguer (guys rated 13th-15th at their position) I get one of those messages that basically says "I'd rather suffocate myself with a catcher's mitt than make this deal."

Trade difficulty is Average. Frustrating.

[OakDragon]

Another consideration. You should probably not take their first offer. They're trying to see if you're a sucker. (Hey, it could work, right? That is a smart AI.) Keep negotiating and they will weaken.

Trade "negotiations" IRL are rarely one-and-done. It's a game of back-and-forth. So it should be in OOTP as well.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by OakDragon

Another consideration. You should probably not take their first offer. They're trying to see if you're a sucker. (Hey, it could work, right? That is a smart AI.) Keep negotiating and they will weaken.

Trade "negotiations" IRL are rarely one-and-done. It's a game of back-and-forth. So it should be in OOTP as well.

Yea trade negotiation (back and forth) is one thing OOTP needs in the future.

Only use for shop a player is to see who the AI wants to get rid of and see the market for the player I am trading. I never make a trade from shop a player.

[OakDragon]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Yea trade negotiation (back and forth) is one thing OOTP needs in the future.

From what I've seen, that's been implemented this year. The one thing I don't like about the way it works is that the AI will start off with a dumb offer pretty much every single time. IMO, after a couple of trade negotiations, word should get around the league that you don't fall for such things (assuming you don't) and those sorts of offers should stop. Hopefully that will get fixed next year.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by OakDragon

From what I've seen, that's been implemented this year. The one thing I don't like about the way it works is that the AI will start off with a dumb offer pretty much every single time. IMO, after a couple of trade negotiations, word should get around the league that you don't fall for such things (assuming you don't) and those sorts of offers should stop. Hopefully that will get fixed next year.

Yea it works somewhat with the "make it work function" it just needs to be tweaked and fleshed out because as of now the AI do not tell you who is up for grab outside of the player listed in the one for one deal.

Shop a player rarely if ever list very young prospects and most of the time they are offering major leaguers.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Shop a player rarely if ever list very young prospects and most of the time they are offering major leaguers.

I was shocked that my one viable option involved an 18 year-old . . Same team actually offered me two players, but the other one was a less-desirable 21 year-old (listed position of C despite having no C skills, while his decent infield skills went to waste and his SS-2 rating never had a chance to get better . . . but that's another story).

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Thunder

listed position of C despite having no C skills, while his decent infield skills went to waste and his SS-2 rating never had a chance to get better . . . but that's another story.

Lol funny that you mentioned that because I spoke of this in another thread today.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Anytime I try and trade for an ok major leaguer (guys rated 13th-15th at their position) I get one of those messages that basically says "I'd rather suffocate myself with a catcher's mitt than make this deal."

Trade difficulty is Average. Frustrating.

You have that wrong. It's not "rather suffocate myself ...", it's "rather suffocate YOU with a catcher's mitt than make this deal".

The AI hates you. It's not that it doesn't care whether it gives you *anything*, it is hell-bent on making sure it gives you *nothing*. If the AI found you bleeding on the side of the highway, it would run over you once more.

Also picked from my dynasty, the last offseason and what the AI thought was prudent for itself.

I have gone back and checked my trade proposals I *received* this offseason through the end of the last update.

October 26 – Knights offer 26-yr old C Ricardo Valadez (who is decent) for Felipe Garcia and prospect Keegan Crabtree.
October 28 – Miners offer 28-yr old C Alfredo Ortíz (who is vastly overpaid and on the trade block) for Brad Sheehan and prospect Desidério Chamissa.
November 26 – Miners offer Ortíz again for Miguel Ramirez and prospect Santiago Trevino.
December 8 – Miners offer Ortíz again for Freddy Rosa and Trevino
December 8 – Loggers offer 31-yr old C Pedro Benitez (cheap but unproductive) for Rosa and Chamissa.
December 9 – Miners offer Ortíz again for Ramirez and Trevino.
December 10 – Miners offer Ortíz again for Ricardo Huerta and Chamissa. (this was where I told them to **** off)
December 11 – Canadiens offer 29-yr old C Pedro Hurtado (decent, but too expensive for being decent) for Rosa and Chamissa.
December 12 – Warriors offer 28-yr old C Germán Lugo (scum) for Felipe Garcia and Chamissa.
December 23 – Scorpions offer 29-yr old C Julio Mata (ha-hah!) for Manuel Martinez and Chamissa.
January 17 – Scorpions offer Mata again for Felipe Garcia and prospect Adam Riddle.
## We acquired Ryan Miller from the Titans on January 18 ##
January 19 – Knights offer Valadez again for Miguel Ramirez and prospect Ryan Miller
January 26 – Aces offer 33-yr old C Mike Olson (total scum) for Miguel Ramirez and Ryan Miller.
February 4 – Cyclones offer 35-yr old C Brian Mosley (wrecked) for Huerta and Ryan Miller.

This list is complete. 14 trade offers. All the same. Decent-at-best catcher, usually overpaid, for a major leaguer, and a good prospect.

EVERY SINGLE TRADE OFFER was that way.

The AI is not interested in a fair trade. "Neutral" means it wants to cut you open and wear your guts.

Has anyone ever shopped Jacob deGrom around? Whom is the AI going to trade for him in a straight deal? Can you get Hank Conger for the reigning NL ROTY? Or do you have to chip in a 4-star prospect?

Ridiculous.