Pitcher Stamina

[Talorin]

I think it would be nice if I didn't have to manually adjust a pitcher's stamina when I convert them to either a Starter or Reliever. Maybe some kind of formula of Innings/Pitches/GamesStarted/Games that would determine if a player would see his stamina increase/decrease.

Starters set to relievers should see their stamina decrease over a set number of games, while the reverse should be true for relievers pushed to start consistently.

[bigmonk]

It's a pipe dream, but it would be handy to designate players for training to switch positions. If you have a starter that has the numbers of a good closer, designate the player for off season and minor league re-training at a different position. Also, have players who are switching field positions maybe lose some batting rating while developing their new fielding ratings. It might be too complicated though for ootp to do.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Talorin

I think it would be nice if I didn't have to manually adjust a pitcher's stamina when I convert them to either a Starter or Reliever. Maybe some kind of formula of Innings/Pitches/GamesStarted/Games that would determine if a player would see his stamina increase/decrease.

Starters set to relievers should see their stamina decrease over a set number of games, while the reverse should be true for relievers pushed to start consistently.

I disagree with this 100%. Changing the players role should not have any effect on his stamina for quite some time.

That's part of the reason why it is hard to convert a reliever to a starter... and starters moved into relief roles are able to go nowhere near as long as they would in a starting role. That is already modeled into the game. For instance, I have a 35-year-old starter Rick Sutcliffe in my historical game, and he has an 80 stamina on the 20-80 scale. He is acting as my long man and by about pitch 45, he is tired.

That is because the game takes into account that a pitcher entering in relief tries to be his most dominant coming out of the bullpen, and does not pace himself as a starter would.

Going the other way, most pitchers that are relievers are there either because it is known they lack the stamina to be a successful starter, or don't have more than two MLB level pitches. It is definitely not any type of a given that a pitcher will develop stamina just because he is moved into a starting role.

You may find this article from Grantland in 2012 very insightful on this topic, and it is backed up by research from all the way back to 1920. You may have quite a different feeling on this issue upon reading it.

Change of Address: Bullpen to Rotation (Grantland, 2012)

[RchW]

Originally Posted by bigmonk

It's a pipe dream, but it would be handy to designate players for training to switch positions. If you have a starter that has the numbers of a good closer, designate the player for off season and minor league re-training at a different position. Also, have players who are switching field positions maybe lose some batting rating while developing their new fielding ratings. It might be too complicated though for ootp to do.

You can switch SP to RP and/or CL and the reverse any time. No need to designate or retrain. About the only thing that isn't like real life is stretching out an RP's arm for starting. I put a pitch count on to mimic that; not really a big deal. Look carefully and you will see a "stuff" boost when certain SP are switched to RP. This again mimics what we know IRL. Keep in mind that many minor league prospects come into MLB as RP when they are SP at AAA or AA.

As for batters it may be my imagination but anytime I've switched positions somewhat permanently there seems to be a batting slump that follows. OTOH I've noticed that flipping RF/LF where there is a defensive stat benefit often improves a players mood.

[Talorin]

I am in no way saying that I should be able to take a one trick pony and get him to pitch like Kershaw. I am saying a pitcher should be able to be stretched out to handle more innings, as is done frequently in real life. And I am also not saying it should be overnight. I am saying changing a reliever to starter should yield some benefit to their stamina over a length of time. Obviously you could have factors that reduce how this works such as age or whatever else. I am also pretty sure that there is already a built in function that adjusts a pitcher's effectiveness based on his role.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Talorin

I am in no way saying that I should be able to take a one trick pony and get him to pitch like Kershaw. I am saying a pitcher should be able to be stretched out to handle more innings, as is done frequently in real life. And I am also not saying it should be overnight. I am saying changing a reliever to starter should yield some benefit to their stamina over a length of time. Obviously you could have factors that reduce how this works such as age or whatever else. I am also pretty sure that there is already a built in function that adjusts a pitcher's effectiveness based on his role.

I'm saying, the stamina value will change if you put that length of time in.

You're just not ever going to see a 40 stamina reliever become a 60 stamina starter... that just won't happen, nor would it be realistic, but you can build stamina on a pitcher. It just isn't going to be some earthshaking amount. Generally, if a guy converts from relief to starting at the major league level, he already has the stamina in place from being a starter all through the minors until they hit the pros. Nearly every successful conversion was a starter until they reached the majors, but when they came up they were initially used and were successful in relief. So, when they get "stretched out" it is more of getting them back into the mindset and the routine than it is actually building more stamina, the stamina was already there to begin with.

It definitely isn't a sure thing at all that a player can be stretched out from relief to starting. Look at Neftali Feliz, for instance. Every time they tried to stretch him out to become a starter, he stressed his arm out, and lost nearly 2 full seasons because of it. I think OOTP does a really good job modeling this, as you see very few conversions at all anymore, and very few of them from reliever to starter are even close to what could be called "successful."

Obviously, you can try to do it in OOTP, but its very hard, just like real life... so, I don't think they should make any changes that would make it easier to convert relievers to starters. There are plenty of reasons why it is done with the rarity it is, especially at the ML level.

And yes, when you put a player in a relief role, they do get a small stuff boost because of entering in relief, you are correct.

[Talorin]

Uh I don't know how else to explain this, but you can train for more stamina in real life. I am not saying a guy will make the transition and be an ace. I am not even asking for that. You can not say it can't be done because players/athletes do it all the time. Stamina has nothing to do with success either.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Talorin

I am in no way saying that I should be able to take a one trick pony and get him to pitch like Kershaw. I am saying a pitcher should be able to be stretched out to handle more innings, as is done frequently in real life. And I am also not saying it should be overnight. I am saying changing a reliever to starter should yield some benefit to their stamina over a length of time. Obviously you could have factors that reduce how this works such as age or whatever else. I am also pretty sure that there is already a built in function that adjusts a pitcher's effectiveness based on his role.

Not every RP can be stretched out unless he is already capable of it. We see this in real life swing men like Estrada and Villanueva neither who have ever pitched a CG despite considerable use as SP. Petit has 2 career CG. His stamina would be high in either role.

Can you give me examples of frequent stretchings out? My impression is that current RP use in MLB is going the other way to frequent short stints. Long relief is generally the refuge of low stuff marginal guys who can't really make it as an RP or SP. The exception occurs where a young SP is in the MLB bullpen. Even then his use as an RP is deliberately designed to reduce IP load on a young arm.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by Talorin

Uh I don't know how else to explain this, but you can train for more stamina in real life. I am not saying a guy will make the transition and be an ace. I am not even asking for that. You can not say it can't be done because players/athletes do it all the time. Stamina has nothing to do with success either.

Yes, you can absolutely train in real life. And it can be argued that probably no one has access to a better quality of training information, nutrition, technology, and equipment than a professional athlete.

Yet, for all of that -- you rarely see this happen anymore, and generally, the only guys you see convert already have the stamina. Why aren't they just training harder???

You tell me I can't say it can't be done because players do it all the time... yet it is rarely even attempted in the majors anymore. I've never once told you it can't be done. It can be done. But its not even attempted with a guy that wouldn't have the stamina in the first place (which seems to be what you're arguing for, as you've already stated you're manually changing pitcher stamina.)

What I *AM* saying is that OOTP already does what you want it to do, but it does it in small increments over long periods of time, exactly as it should.

Again, you aren't ever going to successfully convert a 30-40 stamina reliever to a starter. It wouldn't happen in real life with a guy with that level of stamina, and it shouldn't happen in OOTP.

If it should, feel free to show me any evidence to the contrary, otherwise I'll stick with the data from that article, among other places.

[Talorin]

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

Yes, you can absolutely train in real life. And it can be argued that probably no one has access to a better quality of training information, nutrition, technology, and equipment than a professional athlete.

Yet, for all of that -- you rarely see this happen anymore, and generally, the only guys you see convert already have the stamina. Why aren't they just training harder???

You tell me I can't say it can't be done because players do it all the time... yet it is rarely even attempted in the majors anymore. I've never once told you it can't be done. It can be done. But its not even attempted with a guy that wouldn't have the stamina in the first place (which seems to be what you're arguing for, as you've already stated you're manually changing pitcher stamina.)

What I *AM* saying is that OOTP already does what you want it to do, but it does it in small increments over long periods of time, exactly as it should.

Again, you aren't ever going to successfully convert a 30-40 stamina reliever to a starter. It wouldn't happen in real life with a guy with that level of stamina, and it shouldn't happen in OOTP.

If it should, feel free to show me any evidence to the contrary, otherwise I'll stick with the data from that article, among other places.

The reason you don't see it often is because there are not a lot of guys that have the chops for it. The guys that do are most likely already starters. This comes down to their stuff.

You should have an option to change your crappy RP into an even crappier SP and eventually he can crappily pitch for an entire game in the same crappy manner consistently.

As far as this game already doing what I am asking, I have never seen it. I have had numerous pitchers at any given time in the minors forced as starters. Their stamina never changes much at all. I have seen it go down more than I have ever seen it go up.

I am in no way saying that you should be able to do it and succeed 100%. I am saying it should work out at least some of the time. Say the guy with the 30-40 stamina stretches out over the next 2 years and now has a 60. Sweet. But his stuff is still garbage as a starter. Okay fine, you gave it a shot but reality kicked in and it is time to put him back in the pen. Spending time in the pen he begins to lose that stamina because he just isn't keeping himself stretched out.

Stamina is only a measure of your conditioning to keep going. Anyone can condition themselves to go the distance and throw 200 pitches. Some have further to go than others. And all that said....... has nothing to do with the stuff the pitcher will bring with him while he is actually pitching.

Also....
Successfully transitioning from the bullpen to rotation - Beyond the Box Score

There are other links, but frankly I have no idea why I am getting such resistance to something that should so obviously either be added or improved if the mechanic is already in the game.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Talorin

There are other links, but frankly I have no idea why I am getting such resistance to something that should so obviously either be added or improved if the mechanic is already in the game.

You seem unable to read what you are being told. RP that can make the transition to SP already have the stamina/pitch repertoire to do so.

I already posted that MLB teams often introduce future SP in a bullpen role to ease the transition. Three significant examples of this are Chris Sale (1st round) an SP 2 out of 3 years at college. Adam Wainwright (1st round) out of high school who was an SP for 6 seasons in the minor leagues. Aaron Sanchez (1st round) an SP for 5 seasons in the minors.

One more: David Wells (2nd round) High school, was a starter in the minors who was made into a reliever because he was coming to the very good Blue Jays team of the late 80's. He was a swingman for the 1990-1993 season. Career wise 74% of his games were as a starter.

Do you really need more detail?

Edit:

I'll give more

C J Wilson SP in minors
Derek Lowe SP in minors
Pedro Martinez SP in minors
John Smoltz; an SP everywhere except for 4 seasons in the latter part of his career

[jaysdailydose]

Because we feel that the game accurately predicts the true difficulty in trying to do this in the pros and we don't want a working system broken?

You said it yourself, you know that the rating goes up and down, and down much more than up. How is this not representative of real life?

The data is NOT on your side on this, that is why you are "getting such resistance." The article you posted shows a bunch of guys that were starters their entire lives and broke into the majors in the pen and then became starters.

Also, your idea that "anyone can be stretched out to go the distance" is just false. If that was the case, every starter out there would be finishing their games.. There are obviously guys that come out at 95-100 pitches, some guys that can still go 140. Those guys that come out at 95-100 pitches every start, haven't they been "stretched out" adequately when they haven't pitched an inning in relief in their life?

I'm not trying to be offensive, but you're going to get resistance because I think you underestimate how rare it actually is for a lifetime reliever to make a successful conversion to starting. The guys that are capable of starting will have the stamina for it, and the guys you are trying are probably just too marginal to consider it, and you don't want them to be. The game is telling you that, but instead of listening to what the data is telling you, you're trying to force things (to the point where you are editing the ratings.)

Now, its your game, play it your way -- but you not liking how the system works does not mean the system is broken or in need of improvement.

[Talorin]

And what you guys are failing to read is that stamina is only a measure of how far a guy can go in a game and does not reflect how well he pitches aside from when he gets tired. A guy who starts in the minors for three years and initially had a 40 stamina should see an increase. How is it that a pitcher can lose 40 points to stamina when not starting, yet not have a similar effect on the positive when actually starting. You guys are hung up the fact that not many relievers get turned into starters successfully which is something I have said isn't even the point. Every guy with an arm can be trained to last a game. You, me, and the one-armed man. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all. Either way we're arguing in circles here so I am done dancing. I want this and I have stated my reasons why. Don't care if you agree.

[jaysdailydose]

It does happen in the game, so like you said I dunno what you are arguing.

Guys don't gain 5 pts of stamina a year. And in real life they'd get stronger but a guy who is not suited to starting isn't going to train it into his arm, trust me.

The way you want it to work, any reliever with 3 good pitches I'm making a starter. Realistic, eh? Craig Kimbrel would be MLB'S best starter in no time.