The Babe

swoboda · 05-06-2015, 02:00 PM

Apparently today is the 100th anniversary of Babe Ruth's first home run. Is there any doubt he was the best all around player (pitcher and batter) to ever play.
bring it on sabre-guys.

RchW · 05-06-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swoboda

Apparently today is the 100th anniversary of Babe Ruth's first home run. Is there any doubt he was the best all around player (pitcher and batter) to ever play.
bring it on sabre-guys.

Nitpicking I know but it was his first ML HR. His first professional HR was hit in Toronto in 1914.

Babe Ruth at Hanlan's Point Historical Plaque

Questdog · 05-06-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Nitpicking I know but it was his first ML HR. His first professional HR was hit in Toronto in 1914.

Babe Ruth at Hanlan's Point Historical Plaque

And that was his one and only home run in the minors.

swoboda · 05-06-2015, 05:25 PM

Thank you my brethren.

Déjà Bru · 05-06-2015, 09:23 PM

I like this: "bring it on sabre-guys." Those guys are like modern-day alchemists and phrenologists.

rudel.dietrich · 05-06-2015, 09:55 PM

Challenge accepted

Actually, sabremetrics strongly supports Ruth being the best player ever using pretty much every metric.

That is one way to judge whether or not a metric is good is to use an example of someone who is widely considered to be the greatest player ever and be able to support that.

Questdog · 05-06-2015, 10:28 PM

He does not rank high in Louis Feinberg's Batter FIPSY list. It is a complicated formula, but basically all home runs, walks and strikeouts are considered controlled by the pitcher and all non-home run, non-walk and non-strikeout events are considered mostly random or controlled by the defense and influenced heavily by the park.

RchW · 05-06-2015, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I like this: "bring it on sabre-guys." Those guys are like modern-day alchemists and phrenologists.

What brought this on?

Jason Moyer · 05-07-2015, 11:10 PM

I hate stats but I use stats to form and defend my opinions.

I'd like to see a non-stats guy form an argument for Ruth being the greatest ever without using his statistics.

Questdog · 05-07-2015, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I hate stats but I use stats to form and defend my opinions.

I'd like to see a non-stats guy form an argument for Ruth being the greatest ever without using his statistics.

There is no such thing as a non-stats guy in baseball fandom.

But he did get paid more than any other three players combined. Who else can say that in any era?

ra7c7er · 05-07-2015, 11:39 PM

For as good as he was I've always felt he was the start of sports stars getting away with things off the field.

Questdog · 05-07-2015, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

For as good as he was I've always felt he was the start of sports stars getting away with things off the field.

I dunno about that....there was a player in the 1880's who tried to kill his wife and a policeman in the off-season. Stabbed them both but he was back playing the next year......

And Ruth was suspended for a month for going on an off-season barnstorming tour....

And Cobb got away with quite a bit before Ruth ever showed up.....

Lafayette53 · 05-08-2015, 08:09 PM

If you consider how much of an outlier he was during the period he was playing in, the way he helped revolutionize the game for the better, and the fact that he was a star pitcher as well I think its pretty clear Ruth was the greatest all around ballplayer who's ever lived. And I'm very much someone who embraces the new age stats to varying extents.

RchW · 05-08-2015, 08:13 PM

Deja Bru should just get rid of that pickle (or is it a saber). It would make him much happier.

Jason Moyer · 05-08-2015, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

If you consider how much of an outlier he was

I've always felt like that was more of an argument against him being the greatest ever, that he was an outlier because he was playing the game differently than everyone else had up to that point rather than because he was an athletic god who could do things no one else could. Everyone else was putting up Ruth-ian stats within a few years of him showing them that you could make good scratch in that home run game.

PotatoPeeler · 05-08-2015, 11:27 PM

No love for Barry Bonds in this thread yet?

Questdog · 05-08-2015, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I've always felt like that was more of an argument against him being the greatest ever, that he was an outlier because he was playing the game differently than everyone else had up to that point rather than because he was an athletic god who could do things no one else could. Everyone else was putting up Ruth-ian stats within a few years of him showing them that you could make good scratch in that home run game.

Ruth hit 54 in 1920 and it took 10 years and the rabbit ball of 1930 before anyone else hit 50. So, I would not say everyone else was putting up Ruthian numbers within a few years.....

Ruth hit 40 or more 8 times in the 1920s. No one else did it more than once.....

Jason Moyer · 05-09-2015, 12:21 AM

He was still the most prolific homerun hitter, but after 1920 there were other guys who were also hitting homeruns, if not at the same frequency. I also don't think the revolution he started was really complete until the 50's, when damn near everyone was trying to put the ball in the seats.

Edit: And I think the change in the ball is pretty overrated. There isn't any real evidence that I'm aware of that the balls changed much from 1911 to now aside from WWII. Something most people don't realize about Ruth, actually, is that he probably would have hit 50 a year earlier had he been playing in New York, as he hit nearly the same amount of bombs on the road in 1919 that he did in 1920, despite the rules requiring new balls to be put in play with greater frequency.

Questdog · 05-09-2015, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Edit: And I think the change in the ball is pretty overrated. There isn't any real evidence that I'm aware of that the balls changed much from 1911 to now aside from WWII. Something most people don't realize about Ruth, actually, is that he probably would have hit 50 a year earlier had he been playing in New York, as he hit nearly the same amount of bombs on the road in 1919 that he did in 1920, despite the rules requiring new balls to be put in play with greater frequency.

The major changes in baseball construction that are documented (that I know of): 1920 AL, ball is wound much tighter due to Australian wool being used. 1921, NL adopts same ball.

1931: The "cushioned-cork" center is introduced.

1934: AL and NL agree to use the same ball.

1943: Balata balls due to rubber shortage.

1944: Synthetic rubber used.

1974: Changed from horse hide to cow hide.

1977: Rawlings took over.

P.S. Ruth would not have hit 50 home runs playing in New York in 1919 because of the schedule only being 140 games. If they had played 154 games and he was in New York, then he would have projected to 49.8 homers using the total he hit at each park in 1919.

Jason Moyer · 05-09-2015, 01:05 PM

Which park would he have hit that 8 tenths of a homerun in?

05-06-2015, 02:00 PM	#1
swoboda All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guarding The Line Posts: 1,229	The Babe Apparently today is the 100th anniversary of Babe Ruth's first home run. Is there any doubt he was the best all around player (pitcher and batter) to ever play. bring it on sabre-guys. __________________ "...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer" The late great Lindsey Nelson

05-06-2015, 05:25 PM	#4
swoboda All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guarding The Line Posts: 1,229	Thank you my brethren. __________________ "...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer" The late great Lindsey Nelson

05-06-2015, 09:23 PM	#5
Déjà Bru Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Long Island Posts: 11,742	I like this: "bring it on sabre-guys." Those guys are like modern-day alchemists and phrenologists. __________________ - Bru

05-07-2015, 11:10 PM	#9
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,105	I hate stats but I use stats to form and defend my opinions. I'd like to see a non-stats guy form an argument for Ruth being the greatest ever without using his statistics. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 05-07-2015 at 11:13 PM.

05-08-2015, 08:09 PM	#13
Lafayette53 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: California Posts: 346	If you consider how much of an outlier he was during the period he was playing in, the way he helped revolutionize the game for the better, and the fact that he was a star pitcher as well I think its pretty clear Ruth was the greatest all around ballplayer who's ever lived. And I'm very much someone who embraces the new age stats to varying extents. __________________ Uniforms/Logos: Cincinnati Redbirds through the ages: 1900-2014 Professional Association (1876) Baltimore Bombers Old Dynasties "Many attend, few understand" - The Baltimore Bombers (1946-) Last edited by Lafayette53; 05-08-2015 at 08:10 PM.

05-06-2015, 09:55 PM	#6
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608	Challenge accepted Actually, sabremetrics strongly supports Ruth being the best player ever using pretty much every metric. That is one way to judge whether or not a metric is good is to use an example of someone who is widely considered to be the greatest player ever and be able to support that.

05-06-2015, 10:28 PM	#7
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	He does not rank high in Louis Feinberg's Batter FIPSY list. It is a complicated formula, but basically all home runs, walks and strikeouts are considered controlled by the pitcher and all non-home run, non-walk and non-strikeout events are considered mostly random or controlled by the defense and influenced heavily by the park.

05-07-2015, 11:39 PM	#11
ra7c7er All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,098	For as good as he was I've always felt he was the start of sports stars getting away with things off the field.

05-08-2015, 08:13 PM	#14
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Deja Bru should just get rid of that pickle (or is it a saber). It would make him much happier. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-08-2015, 11:27 PM	#16
PotatoPeeler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 3,639	No love for Barry Bonds in this thread yet? __________________ 培傑西 I have never taken a lesson on how to talk on TV in my life. - Tim McCarver Guns have only two enemies; rust and liberals. The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel.

05-09-2015, 12:21 AM	#18
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,105	He was still the most prolific homerun hitter, but after 1920 there were other guys who were also hitting homeruns, if not at the same frequency. I also don't think the revolution he started was really complete until the 50's, when damn near everyone was trying to put the ball in the seats. Edit: And I think the change in the ball is pretty overrated. There isn't any real evidence that I'm aware of that the balls changed much from 1911 to now aside from WWII. Something most people don't realize about Ruth, actually, is that he probably would have hit 50 a year earlier had he been playing in New York, as he hit nearly the same amount of bombs on the road in 1919 that he did in 1920, despite the rules requiring new balls to be put in play with greater frequency. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 05-09-2015 at 12:26 AM.

05-09-2015, 01:05 PM	#20
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,105	Which park would he have hit that 8 tenths of a homerun in? __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech