Naming convention of player pics: There's gotta be a better way

[silvam14]

I don't know, I find having to put the birthdate as part of the filename extremely time consuming for player photos. Add into that the date format is european to boot and it makes it even worse. I'd love to work on getting those uniform backs for each player, but it will just take too much time to create each file. Unless there is some easier way...

[archibalduk]

Yeah I see what you mean. However, the difficulty is that there has to be a unique identifier for every player in game. It's the only way that an image can appear for a particular player. Otherwise if it was just done by name only, how would the game know which image to show where there is more than one player with the same name?

The way I see it, there are two ways of ensuring that each player has a unique identifier:

1) Have a unique record ID number. Every player in the DB will have a unique ID number and so this could be used. The disadvantage with this is that ID numbers are liable to change (e.g. when new players are added or old ones deleted). This means that whoever had ID #1 in one DB release might not necessarily have the same ID number with the next DB release. Also, these numbers would be really hard to understand - you'd have to look up the number in the DB to find out which player it represented. There's also scope for typing mistakes (and these would be difficult to spot).

2) Incorporate the player's DOB into the filename. It may look a little unwieldy but it's a lot easier to understand than using a unique ID number and it avoids all of the disadvantages mentioned above. Many EHM users (including myself) have designed many facepacks over the past 10 years and although it is a bit of a pain, I think it's fair to say it has worked fine all this time.

Unfortunately I don't think it's something that can be avoided or done differently...

[silvam14]

well, OOTP gets around it by using a middle initial and OOTP has many more players.

I think if the game could generate placeholder files with the filenames, it would be easier, then I could create the images, and overwrite the existing placeholer files

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by silvam14

I don't know, I find having to put the birthdate as part of the filename extremely time consuming for player photos. Add into that the date format is european to boot and it makes it even worse. I'd love to work on getting those uniform backs for each player, but it will just take too much time to create each file. Unless there is some easier way...

You're right, it's a pain. The only upside is that this file naming convention is compatible with EHM facepacks, so I suppose it's a tradeoff in that regard.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by silvam14

well, OOTP gets around it by using a middle initial and OOTP has many more players.

I think if the game could generate placeholder files with the filenames, it would be easier, then I could create the images, and overwrite the existing placeholer files

To be fair, OOTP doesn't get around it very well. Especially when you run a lot of leagues together.

It's not such a pain in OOTP when you just have MLB, but I've found when trying to add college, independents, etc. to an MLB universe it can very quickly become a real mess, picture wise.

You get five Chris Jones' or something, then two have the same middle initial, you have to change not only the picture name, but the name in game, you have to figure out which pic goes to which player, then once next years roster files come along, you have to do it all over again.

Considering that FHM does run a lot of leagues together, far more than OOTP ever would...

I honestly think the EHM-FHM way is better, if more trouble in some ways.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

To be fair, OOTP doesn't get around it very well. Especially when you run a lot of leagues together.

It's not such a pain in OOTP when you just have MLB, but I've found when trying to add college, independents, etc. to an MLB universe it can very quickly become a real mess, picture wise.

I honestly think the EHM-FHM way is better, if more trouble in some ways.

Good point. I only use very small leagues in OOTP so I guess I just haven't experienced how messy it could be.

Perhaps it would be easier to download the facepacks already made and then just overwrite the files as I go

[Bluenoser]

OOTP does a darn good job at getting around it. Five players with the same name - please give me some sample size, because it doesn't happen that often.


This current naming convention is and will continue to be a pita. Silvam is correct in that OOTP handles it well.

The thing is here, things like naming conventions should be mirrored from OOTP. It has numerous versions and has worked out the kinks quite well. Hockey isn't baseball, but the core db structures that work in OOTP should be used wherever possible in this game.

I don't buy the "it's easy to import EHM facepacks" argument at all. That's a poor mans excuse. Think long term for the game. Let's get this naming convention right in version 1 and not still be playing it with it in version 3, 4, etc.


Question - what is FHM going to do for newly generated players? What about fictional leagues/players. What's going to happen when 2 players with the same name have the same birthday?

[geckon]

To make sure I understand... Middle initial is like the W. in George W. Bush? If so, it's not very common in Europe to use such initials (at least not in all nations).

[Loosie]

Originally Posted by silvam14

well, OOTP gets around it by using a middle initial and OOTP has many more players.

I think if the game could generate placeholder files with the filenames, it would be easier, then I could create the images, and overwrite the existing placeholer files

MIddle names are very common in baseball but not in hockey. Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby. I know when baseball cards were everywhere in the early 90's they all had the players middle names listed, but you don't get that with Hockey.

[Alessandro]

Originally Posted by geckon

To make sure I understand... Middle initial is like the W. in George W. Bush? If so, it's not very common in Europe to use such initials (at least not in all nations).

Terrible example

[geckon]

Originally Posted by Alessandro

Terrible example

Sorry, he was the first one who crossed my mind...

[CCMV]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

OOTP does a darn good job at getting around it. Five players with the same name - please give me some sample size, because it doesn't happen that often.

If you look at Swedish names, then you will end up with a lot of mixed up photos if you don't include the birth date (or some other unique identifier). For example, I did a search on eliteprospects for Johan Andersson and ended up with a list of 39 players. Erik Andersson yielded a result of 22 players. And that's just two common Swedish names.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

OOTP does a darn good job at getting around it. Five players with the same name - please give me some sample size,
because it doesn't happen that often.

Six Marcus Johanssons in the database; according to eliteprospects 17 have been active at some point in the 2000's. No easy way to distinguish them besides birthdate; middle names wouldn't be useful because Swedish naming doesn't always follow the first-middle-last convention. The Caps' Marcus Johansson, the best-known one, doesn't have a middle name as far as I can tell; the second most-prominent one, an Allsvenskan defenceman, is actually Björn Ola Marcus Johansson, but goes by his third name, which isn't an uncommon practice. Other important hockey countries have similar practices with middle names.

There's also the research issue of trying to discover middle names. For NHLers, not that difficult; in other countries or for more obscure players, the information isn't readily available. Birthdates are far, far easier to find. Using middle names may be convenient for people building picture sets, but it offloads the work onto the researchers, who already have plenty.

[archibalduk]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

The thing is here, things like naming conventions should be mirrored from OOTP. It has numerous versions and has worked out the kinks quite well. Hockey isn't baseball, but the core db structures that work in OOTP should be used wherever possible in this game.

Do you mean the middle initial thing? Few if any hockey players use any form of middle initial - so how would OOTP's system work???

[sizzlingpopcorn]

Originally Posted by Loosie

MIddle names are very common in baseball but not in hockey. Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby. I know when baseball cards were everywhere in the early 90's they all had the players middle names listed, but you don't get that with Hockey.

His middle name is Cry Baby Kid....LOL

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by JeffR

Six Marcus Johanssons in the database; according to eliteprospects 17 have been active at some point in the 2000's. No easy way to distinguish them besides birthdate; middle names wouldn't be useful because Swedish naming doesn't always follow the first-middle-last convention. The Caps' Marcus Johansson, the best-known one, doesn't have a middle name as far as I can tell; the second most-prominent one, an Allsvenskan defenceman, is actually Björn Ola Marcus Johansson, but goes by his third name, which isn't an uncommon practice. Other important hockey countries have similar practices with middle names.

There's also the research issue of trying to discover middle names. For NHLers, not that difficult; in other countries or for more obscure players, the information isn't readily available. Birthdates are far, far easier to find. Using middle names may be convenient for people building picture sets, but it offloads the work onto the researchers, who already have plenty.

So that's one example. I didn't say it never happens, but once certainly isn't the norm.

As to how OOTP does it, well only Markus can answer that, since he doesn't share his programming (not that he should), but whatever he does, it certainly works quite well.

The point I'm trying to make here is this - don't ignore your community because something is easier to do another way. OOTP got to where it is in large part because of the community. When you say things like Using middle names may be convenient for people building picture sets remember who those people are. For me, and this is true for a large majority of OOTP users, ease of doing these sort of things (naming convention for images for ex) is what keeps me coming back and buying OOTP year after year. It's easy for me to customize and add my own logos, pictures, etc.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

So that's one example. I didn't say it never happens, but once certainly isn't the norm.

As to how OOTP does it, well only Markus can answer that, since he doesn't share his programming (not that he should), but whatever he does, it certainly works quite well.

The point I'm trying to make here is this - don't ignore your community because something is easier to do another way. OOTP got to where it is in large part because of the community. When you say things like Using middle names may be convenient for people building picture sets remember who those people are. For me, and this is true for a large majority of OOTP users, ease of doing these sort of things (naming convention for images for ex) is what keeps me coming back and buying OOTP year after year. It's easy for me to customize and add my own logos, pictures, etc.

But as I tried to mention, OOTP doesn't do it well, when you add many more leagues. Given my experience with creating large universes, I can assure you that in larger universes the middle initial does become a real problem.

That's especially so since, as alluded to by others, sometimes it's difficult to impossible to find a middle name. So then you have to arbitrarily assign a middle inital of John A. Smith, John B. Smith etc. Good luck remembering which John Smith is which when you get around to making the pics.

Does this happen a ton? No, but certainly enough to make things difficult. And it's worse, much worse, for hockey. Especially given the fact that Swedish names do repeat often.

Now I'm certainly not saying there's no better way than including the birthdates, perhaps there is. Hopefully someone can come up with one.

In fact I don't think anyone that's posted above is necessarily in love with using birthdates. But those of us with the experience of making facepacks for very, very large universes have learned that the middle initial is definitely not the best way to go.

[Djungelurban]

Weren't there two Cory Stillman and two Petr Sykora playing in the NHL at the same time a few years back? And for example, there are 19 Johan Andersson that has been registered as playing a game this season over on eliteprospects. 19... Adding DoB is essential.

[Lukas Berger]

The only other alternative I can see it that which is used by Football Manager, assigning player pics via xml files that link the pic name to the in game id. Then the pic name can be anything you want, but you have to run a utility to create the xml linking the pic name with the id. So you have to manually retrieve every id from the db and then enter it into the utility. Or name the pics as the id.

Having created pics for FM, I can tell you it's real pain in the butt to do it that way. Birthdates are better. Perfect, not at all, but better.

[Bigrod]

I don't follow hockey at all, but I would have to wonder, how many players on the same team in any given year have the same exact name?
I've done thousands of pics for baseball, the MLB, All Minor lgs. and about 9,000 for 300 ncaa teams and I've yet to find 2 players on the same team with the same name, but that may be different with the foreign hockey teams.
If it's not many, then I would use player name_team name_year as the naming convention for photos. Just a thought.