Trade

ohms_law · 07-14-2012, 02:46 AM

Now, please understand that my expectations of the AI are realistic. I realize that any human will be able to outwit the AI with a bit of patience and... well, the ability to think somewhat critically. That being said...

Name: Fukudome.jpg
Views: 629
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Name: Fukudome.jpg
Views: 629
Size: 108.6 KB

Fukudome for a bag of practice balls? Really?
I'm thinking that I'm missing something here. The AI isn't this bad, is it?

Mister_G · 07-14-2012, 02:52 AM

Strangely enough, Fukudome was just released by the Sox and signed to a minor league contract by the Yanks. So you're actually getting a worse deal than they did in real life.

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 11:06 AM

In my MLB QS from v11, he played two seasons and then retired with a 0.223 batting average.

The Game · 07-14-2012, 11:09 AM

Pena is a 26 yr old SS, Fukudome is an ancient OF who isn't that good. Why he has so many stars is beyond me. Could have been a cost cutting move.

ohms_law · 07-14-2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

Pena is a 26 yr old SS, Fukudome is an ancient OF who isn't that good. Why he has so many stars is beyond me. Could have been a cost cutting move.

The "so many stars" part is what's making me kinda scratch my head. I think that I have excellent scouting (I hired the best guy available, and maxed my scouting budget). who knows though, it could turn out that the scouting is just that random in this game. I'll find out now.

The age aspect is really the only thing that I can see as any sort of rational for this, though. Pena really sucks, and he's stuck with a ML contract (not that it'd be a problem if someone claimed him off wavers, but still). Fukudome's contract is hardly onerous, either. It's all just kinda strange.

toxicavenger74 · 07-14-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohms_law

The "so many stars" part is what's making me kinda scratch my head. I think that I have excellent scouting (I hired the best guy available, and maxed my scouting budget). who knows though, it could turn out that the scouting is just that random in this game. I'll find out now.

The age aspect is really the only thing that I can see as any sort of rational for this, though. Pena really sucks, and he's stuck with a ML contract (not that it'd be a problem if someone claimed him off wavers, but still). Fukudome's contract is hardly onerous, either. It's all just kinda strange.

So it has to be a scouting thing, sure the trade logic is not perfect but I don't think that is the issue here. Things like this would be due to how your scout is looking at each player and how the opposing scout is looking at the players. Excellent scouting doesn't mean perfect either. It could also be a cost cutting move.

I've had very good fictional players get traded simply because the team was trying to get away from being committed to a large payout at arbitration. I reversed the trade and two days later the same player got traded, reversed again and he was traded a couple days later. My point is that cost cutting moves are made by the AI. Maybe the contract is not that much of a burden but maybe the opposing AI sees something completely different.

I would evaluate your expectations of how you want players to be evaluated (either with a fog of war and scouting on or a true look and scouting off) and then look at adjusting the overall trade settings and then as long as you are not doing a 5 players for 1 switch or something like it, I would just accept it as reality.

ohms_law · 07-14-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

I reversed the trade and two days later the same player got traded, reversed again and he was traded a couple days later.

That's just bad AI. Granted, the AI in the "competition" isn't really much better, but...

Everyone (Markus, Anders, Clay, whoever) needs to get off of their duffs and really work on their AI. I don't understand the problem, it's not as though the AI is sucking up any kind of processor time. Grrr

Pacoheadley · 07-14-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohms_law

That's just bad AI. Granted, the AI in the "competition" isn't really much better, but...

Everyone (Markus, Anders, Clay, whoever) needs to get off of their duffs and really work on their AI. I don't understand the problem, it's not as though the AI is sucking up any kind of processor time. Grrr

I admit that that case is bad AI, but they really have made improvements. I am stuck with OOTP 11 on this desktop for now, and the difference in trading AI between 2 years ago and now is huge, it really has gotten better. I really don't think the AI is a huge problem, it is very hard to code, and for the most part works very well, much better than console games at least.

(P.S., I love your username, "Ohms" was a meme like thing that spread around my last year of high school, haha

)

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohms_law

That's just bad AI. Granted, the AI in the "competition" isn't really much better, but...

Everyone (Markus, Anders, Clay, whoever) needs to get off of their duffs and really work on their AI. I don't understand the problem, it's not as though the AI is sucking up any kind of processor time. Grrr

It's odd though.. I've never seen any huge AI trade ripoffs going on 12 years in my league, but it might be moot as I can't tell from that one screenshot the full picture of the trade. I've made what I thought were AI ripping trades and then in the end, it was me who was the fool.

I don't use the stars though, I use the 20-80 scale for overall and potential ratings... not that it should matter.

It seems to me, the AI knows something you don't - my suggestion is to make the trade and then report back on Fukudome after a few seasons. Honestly, he's 34 years old and the SS you are trading is 26. What does Fukudome's career stats look like? Ratings do not mean everything in this game. Also, what are your AI evaluation settings, trade settings?

Pacoheadley · 07-14-2012, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

It's odd though.. I've never seen any huge AI trade ripoffs going on 12 years in my league, but it might be moot as I can't tell from that one screenshot the full picture of the trade. I've made what I thought were AI ripping trades and then in the end, it was me who was the fool.

I don't use the stars though, I use the 20-80 scale for overall and potential ratings... not that it should matter.

It seems to me, the AI knows something you don't - my suggestion is to make the trade and then report back on Fukudome after a few seasons. Honestly, he's 34 years old and the SS you are trading is 26. What does Fukudome's career stats look like? Ratings do not mean everything in this game. Also, what are your AI evaluation settings, trade settings?

Ohm's as actually talking about the repeated reversing and trading back that someone else mentioned, just to clear things up.

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacoheadley

Ohm's as actually talking about the repeated reversing and trading back that someone else mentioned, just to clear things up.

Ok, now I'm lost?

RchW · 07-14-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohms_law

Now, please understand that my expectations of the AI are realistic. I realize that any human will be able to outwit the AI with a bit of patience and... well, the ability to think somewhat critically. That being said...

Attachment 261054

Fukudome for a bag of practice balls? Really?
I'm thinking that I'm missing something here. The AI isn't this bad, is it?

Oops did I misread $19K as $19M if so then forget what I said

Pacoheadley · 07-14-2012, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Ok, now I'm lost?

The post you quoted was him responding to somebody else, I though it wasn't about his original post, although I understand how it related to his original post now. Ignore my post, I caused some unnecessary confusion

RchW · 07-14-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

It's odd though.. I've never seen any huge AI trade ripoffs going on 12 years in my league, but it might be moot as I can't tell from that one screenshot the full picture of the trade. I've made what I thought were AI ripping trades and then in the end, it was me who was the fool.

I don't use the stars though, I use the 20-80 scale for overall and potential ratings... not that it should matter.

It seems to me, the AI knows something you don't - my suggestion is to make the trade and then report back on Fukudome after a few seasons. Honestly, he's 34 years old and the SS you are trading is 26. What does Fukudome's career stats look like? Ratings do not mean everything in this game. Also, what are your AI evaluation settings, trade settings?

This is my experience too. I'm actually getting frustrated because I have a bunch of prospects ready and the AI is giving nothing for the prospects or some good MLB players on friendly contracts. I'd take a middling prospect at this point and I get nothing even close.

I'm not looking forward to watching some players die on the vine.

toxicavenger74 · 07-14-2012, 02:41 PM

So in my case it wasn't bad AI, the player was due a large sum at arbitration, they had a top caliber prospect ready for backfill and they got a decent player back.

Of course at the time I thought it was a bad move, hence me reversing the trade twice. But a year later I realized why they were trying to move him.

My whole point is that I would think this is the AI GM and scouting seeing something that your scout is not seeing whether accurate or not.

ohms_law · 07-14-2012, 07:31 PM

From my perspective, I'm dumping a useless bench player for a serviceable (albeit old) bench player. Granted, Fukudome is making slightly more than league minimum ($19k more, to be exact), but he's a vet... that's a pretty good deal for a good utility outfielder. I can't see Pena being good enough to stick in the majors ever, which makes his major league contract a problem (he's eating up a 40 man roster spot).

Really, the problem here is the same as with all games: the AI doesn't have an overarching plan at all. Mogul has the same problem, in that to the AI all trades, signings, and draft picks are evaluated individually. There needs to be an overall AI object (in the programming sense) that looks at the whole team structure and devises a plan. This isn't rocket science, it just needs to be done!

But yea, things are better in the last couple of years. I don't dispute that at all. I'm just slightly frustrated because there have been hundreds of us saying the same sort of things regarding the AI for years and years now. *sigh*

Oh, and by the way, here's Fukudome's contract:
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Name: Fukudome contract.png
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Which is great, to me. I mean, I'm in complete control here. If he falls off the cliff towards the end of the season I just buy him out. I can certainly deal with a $3.5 mil contract for a part time player, though... and so could Chicago, really.

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 07:34 PM

Exactly toxicavenger...

You can't just assume the AI is making a bad trade.. I traded what I thought was a career minor league SP for a decent 2B, not great, but could start if my starter went down for an extended period of time and could come off the bench to PH and play the field. Per ratings, I was getting the better deal for sure.

Next season the SP I traded went 14-7 with a 4.05 ERA and won a ring nonetheless. He would go on to have another decent season at SP and now is a pretty good LH MR specialist.

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohms_law

From my perspective, I'm dumping a useless bench player for a serviceable (albeit old) bench player. Granted, Fukudome is making slightly more than league minimum ($19k more, to be exact), but he's a vet... that's a pretty good deal for a good utility outfielder. I can't see Pena being good enough to stick in the majors ever, which makes his major league contract a problem (he's eating up a 40 man roster spot).

Really, the problem here is the same as with all games: the AI doesn't have an overarching plan at all. Mogul has the same problem, in that to the AI all trades, signings, and draft picks are evaluated individually. There needs to be an overall AI object (in the programming sense) that looks at the whole team structure and devises a plan. This isn't rocket science, it just needs to be done!

But yea, things are better in the last couple of years. I don't dispute that at all. I'm just slightly frustrated because there have been hundreds of us saying the same sort of things regarding the AI for years and years now. *sigh*

I'm not doubting you.. but show me some statistical evidence where that trade was huge for you and a major gaffe on the AI's part.

You could have traded for him and his ratings plummet (he is 34 afterall) and goes on to hit 0.250 for the season and is basically a below average bench player for you.

MizzouRah · 07-14-2012, 07:38 PM

Show me Fukudome's BNN player card with his ML stats on it.

What is Pena's position ratings and Fukudome's?

ohms_law · 07-14-2012, 07:43 PM

Tell you what, give me a bit here and I'll finish up this season and I'll post his card then. But, for the sake of conversation: I don't really think that this trade was "huge" for me, I just can't figure out why in the world it was made. The AI is dumping a serviceable player and taking on a scrub who will suck up a 40 man roster spot for a while (to me, at least).

I guess that the real question is what Pena is going to do. We know what to expect from Fukudome, really (which is why I grabbed him).

07-14-2012, 02:46 AM	#1
ohms_law Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 232	Trade Now, please understand that my expectations of the AI are realistic. I realize that any human will be able to outwit the AI with a bit of patience and... well, the ability to think somewhat critically. That being said... Fukudome for a bag of practice balls? Really? I'm thinking that I'm missing something here. The AI isn't this bad, is it? __________________ You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

07-14-2012, 07:31 PM	#16
ohms_law Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 232	From my perspective, I'm dumping a useless bench player for a serviceable (albeit old) bench player. Granted, Fukudome is making slightly more than league minimum ($19k more, to be exact), but he's a vet... that's a pretty good deal for a good utility outfielder. I can't see Pena being good enough to stick in the majors ever, which makes his major league contract a problem (he's eating up a 40 man roster spot). Really, the problem here is the same as with all games: the AI doesn't have an overarching plan at all. Mogul has the same problem, in that to the AI all trades, signings, and draft picks are evaluated individually. There needs to be an overall AI object (in the programming sense) that looks at the whole team structure and devises a plan. This isn't rocket science, it just needs to be done! But yea, things are better in the last couple of years. I don't dispute that at all. I'm just slightly frustrated because there have been hundreds of us saying the same sort of things regarding the AI for years and years now. sigh Oh, and by the way, here's Fukudome's contract: Which is great, to me. I mean, I'm in complete control here. If he falls off the cliff towards the end of the season I just buy him out. I can certainly deal with a $3.5 mil contract for a part time player, though... and so could Chicago, really. __________________ You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann Last edited by ohms_law; 07-14-2012 at 07:36 PM.

07-14-2012, 07:38 PM	#19
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	Show me Fukudome's BNN player card with his ML stats on it. What is Pena's position ratings and Fukudome's? Last edited by MizzouRah; 07-14-2012 at 07:40 PM.

07-14-2012, 07:43 PM	#20
ohms_law Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 232	Tell you what, give me a bit here and I'll finish up this season and I'll post his card then. But, for the sake of conversation: I don't really think that this trade was "huge" for me, I just can't figure out why in the world it was made. The AI is dumping a serviceable player and taking on a scrub who will suck up a 40 man roster spot for a while (to me, at least). I guess that the real question is what Pena is going to do. We know what to expect from Fukudome, really (which is why I grabbed him). __________________ You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

07-14-2012, 02:52 AM	#2
Mister_G All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 576	Strangely enough, Fukudome was just released by the Sox and signed to a minor league contract by the Yanks. So you're actually getting a worse deal than they did in real life.

07-14-2012, 11:06 AM	#3
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	In my MLB QS from v11, he played two seasons and then retired with a 0.223 batting average.

07-14-2012, 11:09 AM	#4
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,937	Pena is a 26 yr old SS, Fukudome is an ancient OF who isn't that good. Why he has so many stars is beyond me. Could have been a cost cutting move.

07-14-2012, 02:41 PM	#15
toxicavenger74 All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 553	So in my case it wasn't bad AI, the player was due a large sum at arbitration, they had a top caliber prospect ready for backfill and they got a decent player back. Of course at the time I thought it was a bad move, hence me reversing the trade twice. But a year later I realized why they were trying to move him. My whole point is that I would think this is the AI GM and scouting seeing something that your scout is not seeing whether accurate or not.

07-14-2012, 07:34 PM	#17
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	Exactly toxicavenger... You can't just assume the AI is making a bad trade.. I traded what I thought was a career minor league SP for a decent 2B, not great, but could start if my starter went down for an extended period of time and could come off the bench to PH and play the field. Per ratings, I was getting the better deal for sure. Next season the SP I traded went 14-7 with a 4.05 ERA and won a ring nonetheless. He would go on to have another decent season at SP and now is a pretty good LH MR specialist.