Pinch hitting

Dutch Alexander · 04-18-2012, 08:00 PM

A little while ago I started a thread about pinch hitting. It was shot down however.

So I will try again.

I've been playing OOTP since v.10 and I've never had succes with pinch hitters. And with never I mean NEVER. Not ever. Absolutely never ever.

Obviously OOTP can be played in many ways and each way may have their own particular issues, so first let me explain how I play the game. (Note, if you play differently you may not encounter this problem.)

I play like this:

Major league quickstart.
Play out every game.
Use the warm-up rule for relievers.

In v.11 & v.12 I've played out 7 NL seasons like this. I do not have the data for all seasons but I recon my pinch hitters have hit about .120 with very few x-tra basehits and a ton of K's. Over these seasons my pitchers have outhit my pinch hitters. I am aware of the concept of sample size, but thats over SEVEN SEASONS. In real life pinch hitters hit probably about .220. The last 10 seasons in RL the lowest BA for a NL team pinch hitting is .152. One season of pinch hitting around .100, alright, could happen (sample size). But SEVEN? Obviously something is wrong here. Could it be attached to the warm-up rule? I'm so convinced something is wrong, seriously, I would feel fairly confident betting my life on it. Seriously.

One of the first things I did when I got v.13 was play out a month of the season to see how pinch hitters were doing. They were oh-fer-22 with 13 K's.
After the first two patches I've now started a new season with the intent to play it out and see how my pinch hitters are doing (

most likely).

Now the intent of this thread is to get feedback from other players.

Players who play the game the same way I do must get simillar results. If not, and if I am the only one getting these results (seven times in a row?), well the changes of that are so remote, I will buy a lottery ticket this week and I will share the winnings with all who respond to this thread! So please all who play the same way and get these results, please respond. Obviously this problem is not recognized right now. If it is, something might be done about it. I'm also interested to know if players who play the same way but who do not use the warm-up rule get different results. Ofcourse I could play out a season not using the warm-up rule to see if the results are different but that's a huge time investment I cannot make, I'm sure you understand.

Oh, by the way, below are the results of my pinch hitters so far.

cmdrsam · 04-18-2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

A little while ago I started a thread about pinch hitting. It was shot down however.

So I will try again.

I've been playing OOTP since v.10 and I've never had succes with pinch hitters. And with never I mean NEVER. Not ever. Absolutely never ever.

Obviously OOTP can be played in many ways and each way may have their own particular issues, so first let me explain how I play the game. (Note, if you play differently you may not encounter this problem.)

I play like this:

Major league quickstart.
Play out every game.
Use the warm-up rule for relievers.

In v.11 & v.12 I've played out 7 NL seasons like this. I do not have the data for all seasons but I recon my pinch hitters have hit about .120 with very few x-tra basehits and a ton of K's. Over these seasons my pitchers have outhit my pinch hitters. I am aware of the concept of sample size, but thats over SEVEN SEASONS. In real life pinch hitters hit probably about .220. The last 10 seasons in RL the lowest BA for a NL team pinch hitting is .152. One season of pinch hitting around .100, alright, could happen (sample size). But SEVEN? Obviously something is wrong here. Could it be attached to the warm-up rule? I'm so convinced something is wrong, seriously, I would feel fairly confident betting my life on it. Seriously.

One of the first things I did when I got v.13 was play out a month of the season to see how pinch hitters were doing. They were oh-fer-22 with 13 K's.
After the first two patches I've now started a new season with the intent to play it out and see how my pinch hitters are doing (

most likely).

Now the intent of this thread is to get feedback from other players.

Players who play the game the same way I do must get simillar results. If not, and if I am the only one getting these results (seven times in a row?), well the changes of that are so remote, I will buy a lottery ticket this week and I will share the winnings with all who respond to this thread! So please all who play the same way and get these results, please respond. Obviously this problem is not recognized right now. If it is, something might be done about it. I'm also interested to know if players who play the same way but who do not use the warm-up rule get different results. Ofcourse I could play out a season not using the warm-up rule to see if the results are different but that's a huge time investment I cannot make, I'm sure you understand.

Oh, by the way, below are the results of my pinch hitters so far.

Seven is a small sample size so dont fret. Ok I cant say early in the season I have much luck either. I get one guy maybe. Now lets say I have a month under my belt. I look at the split stats on what every inning I am using a pinch hitter. Lets say I have a regular who is setting on the bench, I look at those split stats inning, late, runners one, etc and I base my judgement there. It works sometimes. But again not alway. I cant say I'm 0 for what ever, but I get a few hits think I'm probably closer to .220 .250 range. Maybe try that and see if it helps.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 04-18-2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmdrsam

Seven is a small sample size so dont fret.

I wouldn't say that seven seasons is a small sample size (which is what the OP was talking about). Not having data for all of it kind of undercuts the argument, though. And I don't know why the warm-up rule would have anything to do with it. That seems entirely disconnected from pinch-hitting performance.

MizzouRah · 04-18-2012, 09:52 PM

Seems improved in v13. I have two guys hitting near .400 in about 82 games.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Not having data for all of it kind of undercuts the argument, though.

True, but below is some data I do have. That's 52 for 486 in total, a .107 average. Unlikely to be sample size, something is wrong here. Like I said, my pitchers are outhitting my pinch hitters!

giustra199 · 04-19-2012, 05:32 AM

Seems improved in v13.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giustra199

Seems improved in v13.

Not seeing it, so far 2 for 51 in v.13.

OutS|der · 04-19-2012, 08:11 AM

so this problem only affects them when they pitch hit?
Say i bring in a pitcher to pitch hit, his ratings are perfect, are you saying that he would hit worse as a pitch hitter then he ever would batting normally?

I'm going to test this when i get home and see if i can recreate that as i'd expect to see a drop in average due to rust or other factors but not doing as bad as you seem to be doing.

Will try this with the cooperstown roster set as that has allot of superstar players so they should in theory do better then what your seeing

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

And I don't know why the warm-up rule would have anything to do with it. That seems entirely disconnected from pinch-hitting performance.

I agree. But when you play through 7 seasons suffering from this you have enough time to think about it and come up with theories what might be causing this. One thing I came up with (founded on absolutely nothing, pure speculation) is that somehow the warm-up rule affects not only relievers but all players. If you bring in relievers without warming them up their performance decreases dramatically. Perhaps the warm-up rule affects other players as well (unintended), causing pinch hitters to perform dramatically. Somewhere in the programming some knots may be tied wrongly. I know absolutely nothing about programming, so this "theory' is probably pure balony, but it could be something like this.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutS|der

so this problem only affects them when they pitch hit?
Say i bring in a pitcher to pitch hit, his ratings are perfect, are you saying that he would hit worse as a pitch hitter then he ever would batting normally?

Well I do not usually use my pitchers as pinch hitters. In the "Chicago Cubs example" I gave earlier in the thread you can see I did use Big Z as a pinch hitter and he went oh-fer 9 with 5 K's. Below his complete batting line. Now this actually could be down to sample size, but still.

gpellis · 04-19-2012, 08:45 AM

I've noticed the same thing. My pinch hitters are awful. Even if I use a starter on an off day, he rarely, if ever, gets a hit.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 08:55 AM

Here's another pinch hitting example. The last I could find. This is from the only historical season I've ever played, managing the '25 Giants in v10.
Here you can see my PH actually performed extremely well. Go figure. All the 'negative' examples I gave are from v11 and v12 using the MLB quickstart. I'm not trying to find data just to back up my claim. The data I gave is all I could find. Sure, it could happen once, but three times? (Actually 7 times as mentioned before, but I don't have the data to back that up.)

I'm not trying to to be a

ssh

le here. I'm new on these boards, but I'm not a new user complaining after a handful of games played. I've played this game since v10, and over the last two versions I have played out 7 seasons each time with simmilar results. It seems to me I just found a problem, which is backed up by the data provided.
Now, if this is the case then there must be other users experiencing the same. If so feel free to add to this thread and provide simmilar data. If you play the game the same way I do as mentioned in the original post and have completely different results, also feel free to provide data.

Well, look at me, I'm rambling again. I guess sometimes you eat OOTP and sometimes OOTP, well, eats you.

David Watts · 04-19-2012, 09:28 AM

Dutch have you ever looked to see how the AI controlled teams pinch hitters perform? Are they doing just as bad, or is this a problem that only effect human controlled teams? I know my pinch hitters always stink as well. In fact, I started using the DH in all my leagues because of this.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Dutch have you ever looked to see how the AI controlled teams pinch hitters perform? Are they doing just as bad, or is this a problem that only effect human controlled teams? I know my pinch hitters always stink as well. In fact, I started using the DH in all my leagues because of this.

It only affects human controlled teams. AI controlled teams seem to perform normally. A bit difficult to get data on this, since most seasons I've played I progressed to the next year, therefor team-by-team PH data is no longer accessible. From experience I can say though that AI PH is normal, also from looking at some data I do have AI PH seem to hit a tad over .200 with normal overall numbers, which seems realistic.

David Watts · 04-19-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

It only affects human controlled teams. AI controlled teams seem to perform normally. A bit difficult to get data on this, since most seasons I've played I progressed to the next year, therefor team-by-team PH data is no longer accessible. From experience I can say though that AI PH is normal, also from looking at some data I do have AI PH seem to hit a tad over .200 with normal overall numbers, which seems realistic.

That's what I was afraid of. I prefer the way pitching staffs are set up and operate without the DH, but get so frustrated knowing there is no strategic advantage to pulling my pitcher for a pinch hitter.

Dutch Alexander · 04-19-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

That's what I was afraid of. I prefer the way pitching staffs are set up and operate without the DH, but get so frustrated knowing there is no strategic advantage to pulling my pitcher for a pinch hitter.

Yeah, it kinda kills the immersion factor knowing your PH will suck. Especially late in the game if the pitcher spot comes up in a crucial situation, you know beforehand that your PH will K and then usually does. I think I've broken the ML record for most double switches made at least six times! When I managed the Cubs I would never PH for Zambrano. Just let him hit and then bring in a new pitcher.

OutS|der · 04-19-2012, 12:19 PM

K here are my Test settings
Cooperstown league so players are stacked.
Team Strategy edited to pitch hitting on high, with pitchers getting pulled quickly figured that might makemore pitch hitters
League strategy pitch hitting is set to very often, the rest stayed default
No injuries or suspensions
Am managing the all time yankees

Mattingly 54 AB 17 hits
Lazzeri 7 for 23
Selkirk 6 for 21
Berra 4 for 8
Keller 5 for 18

Maybe because i simmed the year but i'm not seeing the same results your are, i'll do a few more years and see

gpellis · 04-19-2012, 12:26 PM

You're simming though. He's playing out the games. Same as I am. I've played out every game this season. I'll take a look at my pinch hitting statistics for this year as well, and if it's possible to pull previous seasons, I'll do that as well. I'm noticing the same poor pinch hitting when playing out games.

OutS|der · 04-19-2012, 01:05 PM

The game engine is the same if you sim or if you play out the games, why would it be any different by playing out the games?
Plus if that is the case then sim the pitch hitters at bat, are you saying if you do that he will get a hit but if you do it yourself he won't?

The AI may not play the game like a real person but i doubt there is an advantage by when it plays.

Nunyer · 04-19-2012, 01:08 PM

I have nothing but anecdotal information to add, having long since deleted that league, but I saw a similar issue in v12 with pinch hitters under MLB Quickstart. I poked around the forum and I recall finding a thread discussing the same issue. The consensus was that the issue only crops up under MLB Quickstart. Any other fictional or historical modes and pinch hitters pretty much 'feel' correct.

If I get a minute, I'll search and try to find that thread from the v12 forum... but I have to imagine somebody else would remember it as well... too many regulars around here.

04-18-2012, 08:00 PM	#1
Dutch Alexander All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 728	Pinch hitting A little while ago I started a thread about pinch hitting. It was shot down however. So I will try again. I've been playing OOTP since v.10 and I've never had succes with pinch hitters. And with never I mean NEVER. Not ever. Absolutely never ever. Obviously OOTP can be played in many ways and each way may have their own particular issues, so first let me explain how I play the game. (Note, if you play differently you may not encounter this problem.) I play like this: Major league quickstart. Play out every game. Use the warm-up rule for relievers. In v.11 & v.12 I've played out 7 NL seasons like this. I do not have the data for all seasons but I recon my pinch hitters have hit about .120 with very few x-tra basehits and a ton of K's. Over these seasons my pitchers have outhit my pinch hitters. I am aware of the concept of sample size, but thats over SEVEN SEASONS. In real life pinch hitters hit probably about .220. The last 10 seasons in RL the lowest BA for a NL team pinch hitting is .152. One season of pinch hitting around .100, alright, could happen (sample size). But SEVEN? Obviously something is wrong here. Could it be attached to the warm-up rule? I'm so convinced something is wrong, seriously, I would feel fairly confident betting my life on it. Seriously. One of the first things I did when I got v.13 was play out a month of the season to see how pinch hitters were doing. They were oh-fer-22 with 13 K's. After the first two patches I've now started a new season with the intent to play it out and see how my pinch hitters are doing ( most likely). Now the intent of this thread is to get feedback from other players. Players who play the game the same way I do must get simillar results. If not, and if I am the only one getting these results (seven times in a row?), well the changes of that are so remote, I will buy a lottery ticket this week and I will share the winnings with all who respond to this thread! So please all who play the same way and get these results, please respond. Obviously this problem is not recognized right now. If it is, something might be done about it. I'm also interested to know if players who play the same way but who do not use the warm-up rule get different results. Ofcourse I could play out a season not using the warm-up rule to see if the results are different but that's a huge time investment I cannot make, I'm sure you understand. Oh, by the way, below are the results of my pinch hitters so far. Attached Images Last edited by Dutch Alexander; 04-18-2012 at 08:11 PM.

04-19-2012, 05:32 AM	#6
giustra199 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 5	Seems improved in v13. Last edited by giustra199; 04-19-2012 at 05:33 AM.

04-19-2012, 08:55 AM	#12
Dutch Alexander All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 728	Here's another pinch hitting example. The last I could find. This is from the only historical season I've ever played, managing the '25 Giants in v10. Here you can see my PH actually performed extremely well. Go figure. All the 'negative' examples I gave are from v11 and v12 using the MLB quickstart. I'm not trying to find data just to back up my claim. The data I gave is all I could find. Sure, it could happen once, but three times? (Actually 7 times as mentioned before, but I don't have the data to back that up.) I'm not trying to to be a sshle here. I'm new on these boards, but I'm not a new user complaining after a handful of games played. I've played this game since v10, and over the last two versions I have played out 7 seasons each time with simmilar results. It seems to me I just found a problem, which is backed up by the data provided. Now, if this is the case then there must be other users experiencing the same. If so feel free to add to this thread and provide simmilar data. If you play the game the same way I do as mentioned in the original post and have completely different results, also feel free to provide data. Well, look at me, I'm rambling again. I guess sometimes you eat OOTP and sometimes OOTP, well, eats you. Attached Images Last edited by Dutch Alexander; 04-19-2012 at 09:11 AM. Reason: typo

04-18-2012, 09:52 PM	#4
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,266	Seems improved in v13. I have two guys hitting near .400 in about 82 games.

04-19-2012, 08:11 AM	#8
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,757 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	so this problem only affects them when they pitch hit? Say i bring in a pitcher to pitch hit, his ratings are perfect, are you saying that he would hit worse as a pitch hitter then he ever would batting normally? I'm going to test this when i get home and see if i can recreate that as i'd expect to see a drop in average due to rust or other factors but not doing as bad as you seem to be doing. Will try this with the cooperstown roster set as that has allot of superstar players so they should in theory do better then what your seeing

04-19-2012, 08:45 AM	#11
gpellis Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 182	I've noticed the same thing. My pinch hitters are awful. Even if I use a starter on an off day, he rarely, if ever, gets a hit.

04-19-2012, 09:28 AM	#13
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,127 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Dutch have you ever looked to see how the AI controlled teams pinch hitters perform? Are they doing just as bad, or is this a problem that only effect human controlled teams? I know my pinch hitters always stink as well. In fact, I started using the DH in all my leagues because of this.

04-19-2012, 12:19 PM	#17
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,757 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	K here are my Test settings Cooperstown league so players are stacked. Team Strategy edited to pitch hitting on high, with pitchers getting pulled quickly figured that might makemore pitch hitters League strategy pitch hitting is set to very often, the rest stayed default No injuries or suspensions Am managing the all time yankees Mattingly 54 AB 17 hits Lazzeri 7 for 23 Selkirk 6 for 21 Berra 4 for 8 Keller 5 for 18 Maybe because i simmed the year but i'm not seeing the same results your are, i'll do a few more years and see

04-19-2012, 12:26 PM	#18
gpellis Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 182	You're simming though. He's playing out the games. Same as I am. I've played out every game this season. I'll take a look at my pinch hitting statistics for this year as well, and if it's possible to pull previous seasons, I'll do that as well. I'm noticing the same poor pinch hitting when playing out games.

04-19-2012, 01:05 PM	#19
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,757 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	The game engine is the same if you sim or if you play out the games, why would it be any different by playing out the games? Plus if that is the case then sim the pitch hitters at bat, are you saying if you do that he will get a hit but if you do it yourself he won't? The AI may not play the game like a real person but i doubt there is an advantage by when it plays.

04-19-2012, 01:08 PM	#20
Nunyer All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Baseball Ned Flanders stares into your soul... Posts: 594	I have nothing but anecdotal information to add, having long since deleted that league, but I saw a similar issue in v12 with pinch hitters under MLB Quickstart. I poked around the forum and I recall finding a thread discussing the same issue. The consensus was that the issue only crops up under MLB Quickstart. Any other fictional or historical modes and pinch hitters pretty much 'feel' correct. If I get a minute, I'll search and try to find that thread from the v12 forum... but I have to imagine somebody else would remember it as well... too many regulars around here.