Random Debut Service Time Issue

[wspahn21]

I just noticed in my historical random debut test league an issue with service time.

I have only found it on one player but still checking others.

League started in 1871 and it is currently 1881.

Lary Doby was drafted in 1871 and has 17 years of service time.



Okay, just found that Sandy Koufax has the same issue.

[Charlie Hough]

Please post this in the bugs thread immediately. Maybe this can be fixed in time for the patch.

[Markus Heinsohn]

This is not a bug, he is 37 years old and has played for 17 years prior to this age in real life. That's the base of the calculation.

[Charlie Hough]

The OP says that he started the league in 1871 and simmed until 1881. The 17 years of service time is the total after 10 years of simming. So he was imported with 7 years of service time.

I've been trying to get an explanation of how players are initially imported for the random debut feature. How do we know the base year for their import? How are their birthdates changed? Is it random, based on their age at the time of their MLB debut, or what exactly?

I've seen players that clearly were NOT imported based on their rookie season.

And I've always wondered why service years should exist for any historical players if you're actually starting an entirely new league and NOT importing real history up until that point.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

And I've always wondered why service years should exist for any historical players if you're actually starting an entirely new league and NOT importing real history up until that point.

Simple, would you want a 32 year old veteran earning the league minimum?

It all works properly and as designed.

[wspahn21]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Simple, would you want a 32 year old veteran earning the league minimum?

It all works properly and as designed.

I really don't understand this Markus. My league is the only league in my world so where is he playing to get this service time, it just screws up my league? For the lack of a better word it blows the immersion factor of my game.

You are the boss but I honestly think service time should only count for the current league the guy is in.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by wspahn21

I really don't understand this Markus. My league is the only league in my world so where is he playing to get this service time, it just screws up my league? For the lack of a better word it blows the immersion factor of my game.

You are the boss but I honestly think service time should only count for the current league the guy is in.

In order to have the player get a proper salary (and enter arbitration / FA years), service time is calculated based on real life service time at the time of the import. So, when you start in 1871 and a 32-year old Alomar is imported, his service time is something like 10 years. If it would work differently, the whole league would earn the league minimum salary after creation, which simply makes no sense.

[wspahn21]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

In order to have the player get a proper salary (and enter arbitration / FA years), service time is calculated based on real life service time at the time of the import. So, when you start in 1871 and a 32-year old Alomar is imported, his service time is something like 10 years. If it would work differently, the whole league would earn the league minimum salary after creation, which simply makes no sense.

Not to argue with you, and thank you for the game but I think it makes perfect sense for everyone to get minimum pay when starting a new league unless another league exists in the world that the player moved over from.

Why would I pay a 32 year old unproven Alomar anything but minimum salary?

My league is the only league in the world, where has he played for 10 years, I wouldn't count playing ball for a city team or something before a real league is founded as service time.

If it is one of those things that just has to be that way for the game to work properly then I will just hush up about it.

[ajsas01]

Originally Posted by wspahn21

Not to argue with you, and thank you for the game but I think it makes perfect sense for everyone to get minimum pay when starting a new league unless another league exists in the world that the player moved over from.

Why would I pay a 32 year old unproven Alomar anything but minimum salary?

My league is the only league in the world, where has he played for 10 years, I wouldn't count playing ball for a city team or something before a real league is founded as service time.

If it is one of those things that just has to be that way for the game to work properly then I will just hush up about it.

If everyone made the minimum for the first 3 years of the league, every team would be absolutely socking away the money for 3 years.

Additionally, since each player has a general idea of how much money is floating around in the league, in 6 years (free agaents) players will be asking for extremely high amounts of cash, i.e. amounts that will set the tone for the league for decades to come!!!

I don't know what the 1800s amounts would be, but I imagine in 2012, if EVERYONE made the minimum for 3 and the first FA happened in 6 years, players might be asking for 120,000,000 PER YEAR!

[Eiskrap]

Surely if you were to start a league today not everybody would get the same minimum contract.

The way it works gives a simple way of estimating what players would get.

[OutS|der]

everyone having the minimum salary would be just wrong but players having service time from somewhere that doesn't exist in my fantasy world just seems off to.
Is an easy solution though
Erase all service time for all players then give them all fictional contracts and both problems are solved
The contracts would be based off ratings would they not so no more superstar at minimum or am i wrong about that?

[wspahn21]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

everyone having the minimum salary would be just wrong but players having service time from somewhere that doesn't exist in my fantasy world just seems off to.
Is an easy solution though
Erase all service time for all players then give them all fictional contracts and both problems are solved
The contracts would be based off ratings would they not so no more superstar at minimum or am i wrong about that?

So just do this after the initial draft? This may be the solution.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

everyone having the minimum salary would be just wrong but players having service time from somewhere that doesn't exist in my fantasy world just seems off to.
Is an easy solution though
Erase all service time for all players then give them all fictional contracts and both problems are solved
The contracts would be based off ratings would they not so no more superstar at minimum or am i wrong about that?

Won't work all players will then have their contracts set to league minimum. With the service time I would just leave it and think of it as having players play in a different league prior to the creation of your league. Another thing if all teams have minimum contracts for all players your finances will be screwed up royally when they start earning more that the minimum. Teams won't hoard money, they will lower the payroll budget. I have not tried this in OOTP13 but made this mistake in OOTP12.

[Knuckster]

They get "service time" (and thus different contracts) from

a) stick ball on the streets
b) amateur ball
c) other sports

is the way I see it (when I am in your situation).

I think even in a league that is just starting up, that players will have been evaluated by scouts and their worth and skills evaluated.

Unless you are creating a league where baseball never existed before your league came along...but even then my approach "works."

This is just my take.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by wspahn21

So just do this after the initial draft? This may be the solution.

The service time works, but the assign ficional contracts seems to be giving them all the minimum 1 year deals yet it says it would based on ratings/vaule

This isn't working right as i can't get it to give anyone any more, it seems to be only service time that affects this but would rather have it be the ratings

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

In order to have the player get a proper salary (and enter arbitration / FA years), service time is calculated based on real life service time at the time of the import.

I will raise this point again. I think there is a fundamental flaw in approaching historical play (including random debut) with a view toward free agency and arbitration.

These did not exist once the reserve clause was in effect, and arbitration never existed until relatively recently in all sports. There was no service time in 1876. Professional baseball did not exist before this time, so it makes no sense for OOTP to create fictional service time.

Also, how many people are playing early 1900s leagues with free agency and arbitration? I'd be willing to bet that most early historical simmers and many who are simulating early fictional historical leagues are using the reserve clause option.

So I disagree with the use of service time for the stated purpose. Leave that to leagues that use free agency and arbitration, and leave it to modern leagues.

Also, I agree with the posts about service time not being logical in a fictional context or a league that is simulating a fresh start that assumes no professional baseball existing before or outside the league.

Yes, we can erase service time, but it would be easier to have an option to exclude it when creating the game and yet still have contracts based on player ratings and player age.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

everyone having the minimum salary would be just wrong but players having service time from somewhere that doesn't exist in my fantasy world just seems off to.
Is an easy solution though
Erase all service time for all players then give them all fictional contracts and both problems are solved
The contracts would be based off ratings would they not so no more superstar at minimum or am i wrong about that?

Why would you erase the contracts? Just erase the service time and you're done, right? My only question about that is what happens to future contracts without that service time?

[sc_superstar]

During the original import, not all players are imported as rookies. I see where some players want everything wiped if they start in the 1800's but that would cause a whole mess.

Basically the setting is designed so that some players come in as Veteran players regardless of what year you start.

So that 32 y/o Alomar has 10 years of service time to start no matter if you start in 1887 or 1987.

a 27 y/o Alomar would have 5 years of service time and the appropriate contact(s), no matter what year you start in.

It's not a bug, just some things have to be a little broader or else they would not function correctly.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

It's not a bug, just some things have to be a little broader or else they would not function correctly.

There are other ways to do this without relying on service time actually being created.

But now we have a game that will give Alomar a number of years of service time when the league starts in 1876. This would have literally been impossible because there were no professional leagues in which he could have accrued service time. Moreover, major league service time did not even exist as a concept in the early decades of baseball.

This is applying a modern day and real world concept to historical and fictional leagues in which it's not always appropriate or logical.

Yes, there may be a need to do this to make things work, but it could be done without this particular, artificial factor. OOTP could calculate salary demands in other ways, while leaving service status to start at zero for those that want this.