Matt Holliday Should Not Bat Cleanup

[Nutlaw]

I tried to stir people up with this one a bit, but I stand by my statements here:

Why Holliday should bat second | The Cardinal Nation blog

[Athletics17]

I see what you mean. He didn't start pulling his weight in Oakland until right before he was traded and the season was already over for them. The only thing is in St. Louis if you put him at second who would be consistent in the 4th spot? That why they traded for him. He is killing the ball so far.

If they could get another power hitter I would experiment with it.

He also had better batters around him in Colorado then Oakland.

[TribeFanInNC]

Well thought out writeup, but I think I disagree. I think you need somebody behind Pujols to dissuade teams from just totally pitching around him. Also, Holliday I think had a period this year where he hit like 1 HR in 100 ABs - just a slump IMO. The last 2 months or so, he has shown more of the power I think that is normal for him. I agree with the assessment that he was aided significantly in Coors Field, but I think he is still a 40 2B, 30 HR guy at sea level. I think you waste that RBI potential hitting him first or second.

Of course, I always thought batting Grady Sizemore leadoff was stupid too.

[Nutlaw]

Fair enough. It just seems as if he is much better suited to getting on base than hitting for power. I'd trust Ludwick and DeRosa to help drive him in.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Fair enough. It just seems as if he is much better suited to getting on base than hitting for power. I'd trust Ludwick and DeRosa to help drive him in.

Not that I think DeRosa is an ideal #2 hitter either. He's really more, as you alluded, a #6 hole hitter. Unfortunately, so is Ludwick and Ankiel and probably some other guys.

Ideally Lugo would hit well (or at least provide productive outs) and fit in the #2 spot. But I know that may not happen in the real world either.

We'll see.

[dsvitak]

I have zero issues with hitting Holliday second, and Ludwick fourth.

For the two years, 2008 and 2009, here are Ludwick's numbers, in the cleanup spot:

AB: 494
HR: 34
RBI: 114
AVG: .290
OBP: .360
SLG: .560
OPS: .920

OPS+ last year was 150, this year, 112, and climbing.

In the "two" spot should be a high OBP guy. If he has a little pop, that's fine. His main objective is to get on base ahead of Pujols, Ludwick, and DeRosa.

Lugo is not the answer, but Colby Rasmus may be, if Rasmus walked another 5% of the time. For a 22-year old rookie, his OPS+ of 93 isn't shabby, but his OBP of .307 is too low.

I sincerely think that Rasmus has Jimmy Edmonds-type ability, but it will take another year or two to materialize.

Edmonds, at 22, was in the minors....as he was at 23, AND 24.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

...I think he is still a 40 2B, 30 HR guy at sea level. I think you waste that RBI potential hitting him first or second.

I disagree here.

His per 162 game average is 29 home runs, and this includes ALL his time in Colorado.

Seeing as how he has averaged just 140 games per year in his career, a more realistic home run average---at sea level---is closer to 20 than 30.

This is fine, for the #2 slot.

[jbergey22]

Bat Holliday #3, Pujols #4, and Ludwick #5. Get the pitcher back in the 9th spot where he belongs and the problem is solved.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Bat Holliday #3, Pujols #4, and Ludwick #5. Get the pitcher back in the 9th spot where he belongs and the problem is solved.

LaRussa wants the 20-30 additional at bats that Pujols would get in the #3 hole.

While I agree with you, personally, there is SOME merit in what he says.

[Reader012]

I would bat Pujols second if I were the manager of most any MLB team and he was on my team.

[Erik W.]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Get the pitcher back in the 9th spot where he belongs and the problem is solved.

The pitcher has been batting 9th since the Holliday trade.

[dsvitak]

Well, Ludwick got the National League Player of the Month for July, with 28 or so RBI.

Ludwick's RBI rate, and his situational hitting is every bit as good as Holliday's.

There's your answer. I would bat Holliday FIFTH, after Ludwick.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Well, Ludwick got the National League Player of the Month for July, with 28 or so RBI.

Ludwick's RBI rate, and his situational hitting is every bit as good as Holliday's.

There's your answer. I would bat Holliday FIFTH, after Ludwick.

I dunno. Rasmus isn't yet walking enough to man the two hole and Holliday is still really good. As long as they get DeRosa out of that spot, however, I'll be content.

Ludwick is a very solid hitter. I'd be happier with him at cleanup than anyone at the moment.

[Erik W.]

If this was last year I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But this year I think Ludwick fits the mold of a #5 hitter better, with a low OBP but still a lot of power.

As for Rasmus, I have to wonder how badly being platooned is hurting him. Whenever he gets consistent playing time, he starts to catch fire. Then every time he has to sit for a few days he goes cold.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

I dunno. Rasmus isn't yet walking enough to man the two hole and Holliday is still really good. As long as they get DeRosa out of that spot, however, I'll be content.

Ludwick is a very solid hitter. I'd be happier with him at cleanup than anyone at the moment.

There's the rub. There are strengths, there are weaknesses.

For the #2 hole, here's the problems
1) Molina. If he were even 10% faster, he would be excellent
2) Rasmus. Too low OBP, and AVG. MIGHT be better next year, but then he gets his power spike, and turns into Jimmy Edmonds.
3) Holliday...not bad. Overrated power, just 20 or so a year, like to see a lefty in this spot.
4) DeRosa. Almost 35, hit .253 last year, decidedly NOT the answer, going forward
5) Brendan Ryan. I LIKE this, if he can show a little more plate discipline.
6) Lugo. Perfectly acceptable, vs. lefties. May work with Rasmus in a platoon set up.
7) Thurston. Ugh.

Do the Cardinals appreciate how runs would score if Rickey Henderson, in his prime, hit leadoff? 150? 170?

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Erik W.

If this was last year I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But this year I think Ludwick fits the mold of a #5 hitter better, with a low OBP but still a lot of power.

As for Rasmus, I have to wonder how badly being platooned is hurting him. Whenever he gets consistent playing time, he starts to catch fire. Then every time he has to sit for a few days he goes cold.

Currently, his heel is hurt. This works into the Cards favor, as I think he was getting worn down from playing every day.

I see Rasmus as the every day centerfielder for the next 15 years, if they bring him along slowly.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Erik W.

As for Rasmus, I have to wonder how badly being platooned is hurting him. Whenever he gets consistent playing time, he starts to catch fire. Then every time he has to sit for a few days he goes cold.

Unfortunately, it's not even a platoon any more. Ludwick and Holliday have to be nearly every day players and Ankiel and Rasmus are both lefties. Other than benching Ankiel, I don't know what the solution is.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

5) Brendan Ryan. I LIKE this, if he can show a little more plate discipline.
6) Lugo. Perfectly acceptable, vs. lefties. May work with Rasmus in a platoon set up.

Yeah, I'm okay with Lugo batting second against lefties, but then Ryan needs to lead off. Other than injury-led situations, Skip has no business flailing his bat against LHP.

Holliday is a much better player than these guys, however. If there are extra at-bats to be had, they should go to him.