Do I Dare Go Here Again ... LOL

Henry · 10-30-2002, 03:37 PM

Clutch Hitting has been discussed ad nauseum on this board with some aggressive comments and reactions. Usually, we settled on some conclusion that said "if there was such a thing, it's mimimal". Well, I just came across yet another analysis that basically says the same thing - so I thought for the purpose of sharing knowledge - I'd post it... just an FYI guys

Those of you that remember the past discussions, you'll know I felt that in historical leagues, you probably couldn't justify a clutch hitting rating since there really wasn't anything to base it on. I do, however (and still) think it's a nice addition for fictional players since it helps us "see" the fictional player as a real skin-and-blood person. Call it media hype, or something only fictinal players have - but I don't think it hurts being there when your not trying to replicate real history.

Anyways... let the discussions begin !!

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http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/cyrilmo...mtbrand=AOL_US

Henry

Dargone · 10-30-2002, 03:40 PM

Very interesting....

Lamorak · 10-30-2002, 07:40 PM

While the hitters OBS remained unchanged, it appears that this study fails to take into account that the quality of the pitchers that were faced in each situation did change.

Getting a 'close and late' hit against a quality bullpen set-up reliever or the closer, is generally harder than a starter. Therefore, performing the at the same ability in these situations implies a marked increase in personal performance.

Clutch lives.

Henry · 10-30-2002, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lamorak
While the hitters OBS remained unchanged, it appears that this study fails to take into account that the quality of the pitchers that were faced in each situation did change.

Getting a 'close and late' hit against a quality bullpen set-up reliever or the closer, is generally harder than a starter. Therefore, performing the at the same ability in these situations implies a marked increase in personal performance.

Clutch lives.

LOL Well, I have to admit that is an interesting angle - IF we can assume the batters did, in fact, face tougher pitching in these situations. You have to admit though that once again we're short on enough information to be sure.

Henry

Lamorak · 10-30-2002, 09:15 PM

The definiton of a 'clutch' situation is fixed but the definition of a clutch player isn't. Until one is assigned, a hypothesis can't be tested against it.

Personally, I have one major reason to say the abstract concept of a clutch player really does exist.

The players say it does.

Reminds me of the rising fastball debate. Physics said it was impossible. Players said it was obvious. Turns out it was mostly optics but conceptually, it does exist.

In my mind, a clutch player doesn't have to play better or worse in a clutch situation. He only has to play the SAME. But, hopefully the pitcher will crack under the pressure and make a mistake. If one side is adversely effected by a stressful situation, the other side must consequently have an improved chance of success. 'Volia- a clutch hitter is born.

Sports psych 101. Mental/physical arousal is on a bell curve.

Too little- you're not sharp. And like a Closer pitching in a non-save situation sometimes they'll just suck out until the pressure mounts to the right level. Then they perform peak.

But too much arousal and a player will freeze, like a deer in the headlights. Panic, tension, brainlock and the strikeout "on a really bad pitch!"

To paraphrase Kipling:
If you can keep your head, when all about you are losing theirs, then you'll be a clutch hitter my son.

10-30-2002, 03:37 PM	#1
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Do I Dare Go Here Again ... LOL Clutch Hitting has been discussed ad nauseum on this board with some aggressive comments and reactions. Usually, we settled on some conclusion that said "if there was such a thing, it's mimimal". Well, I just came across yet another analysis that basically says the same thing - so I thought for the purpose of sharing knowledge - I'd post it... just an FYI guys Those of you that remember the past discussions, you'll know I felt that in historical leagues, you probably couldn't justify a clutch hitting rating since there really wasn't anything to base it on. I do, however (and still) think it's a nice addition for fictional players since it helps us "see" the fictional player as a real skin-and-blood person. Call it media hype, or something only fictinal players have - but I don't think it hurts being there when your not trying to replicate real history. Anyways... let the discussions begin !! ================================ http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/cyrilmo...mtbrand=AOL_US Henry

10-30-2002, 03:40 PM	#2
Dargone Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Interwebs Posts: 2,862	Very interesting.... __________________ I was never one to patiently pick up broken fragments and glue them together again and tell myself that the mended whole was as good as new. What is broken is broken -- and I'd rather remember it as it was at its best than mend it and see the broken places as long as I lived.-Margaret Mitchell

10-30-2002, 07:40 PM	#3
Lamorak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 195	While the hitters OBS remained unchanged, it appears that this study fails to take into account that the quality of the pitchers that were faced in each situation did change. Getting a 'close and late' hit against a quality bullpen set-up reliever or the closer, is generally harder than a starter. Therefore, performing the at the same ability in these situations implies a marked increase in personal performance. Clutch lives. Last edited by Lamorak; 10-30-2002 at 07:42 PM.

10-30-2002, 09:15 PM	#5
Lamorak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 195	The definiton of a 'clutch' situation is fixed but the definition of a clutch player isn't. Until one is assigned, a hypothesis can't be tested against it. Personally, I have one major reason to say the abstract concept of a clutch player really does exist. The players say it does. Reminds me of the rising fastball debate. Physics said it was impossible. Players said it was obvious. Turns out it was mostly optics but conceptually, it does exist. In my mind, a clutch player doesn't have to play better or worse in a clutch situation. He only has to play the SAME. But, hopefully the pitcher will crack under the pressure and make a mistake. If one side is adversely effected by a stressful situation, the other side must consequently have an improved chance of success. 'Volia- a clutch hitter is born. Sports psych 101. Mental/physical arousal is on a bell curve. Too little- you're not sharp. And like a Closer pitching in a non-save situation sometimes they'll just suck out until the pressure mounts to the right level. Then they perform peak. But too much arousal and a player will freeze, like a deer in the headlights. Panic, tension, brainlock and the strikeout "on a really bad pitch!" To paraphrase Kipling: If you can keep your head, when all about you are losing theirs, then you'll be a clutch hitter my son.