If I were Giambi, I'd be pissed...

crackpott · 10-01-2002, 10:24 PM

Last year he got robbed of the MVP by the media's lovechild Ichiro. This year the same thing may happen with Soriano. Neither have numbers even close to Giambi.

I hate Giambi since he left the A's for the Yankees, but he really did deserve 3 consecutive MVP's.

Long_Long_Name · 10-01-2002, 10:28 PM

I'd give the MVP to Tejada. Niether Soriano or Giambi deserves it in my opinion. Be aware that it's not the "Best Player" award, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award, or else I'd give it to Mr. Rodriguez.

crackpott · 10-01-2002, 10:30 PM

Regardless... mainly i'm just pissed that Soriano has a good chance at winning it. And I forget if it was on here or Fanhome, but I remember a lengthy thread why Tejada didn't deserve the award.

Long_Long_Name · 10-01-2002, 10:32 PM

I think you could write a lenghty thread on why Soriano, A-Rod or Giambi shouldn't win neither....

However I must agree with you, I think Soriano has too good of a chance of winning it. Not a big fan neither.

Jason Moyer · 10-02-2002, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Long_Long_Name
I'd give the MVP to Tejada. Niether Soriano or Giambi deserves it in my opinion. Be aware that it's not the "Best Player" award, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award, or else I'd give it to Mr. Rodriguez.

I don't understand how the qualifications for "best player" and "most valuable" differ. If you contribute the most to your team in terms of creating wins, you get the award.

Speaking of last place teams having MVP winners, the only one I can think of is possibly the least deserving MVP of the last 20 years - Andre Dawson. Quick tip to the voters - leading the league in HR and RBI doesn't make you a great player (see Dave Kingman).

Edit: Haven't mentioned Bobby Abreu lately, so here goes - not only did he have a better season than Soriano, he had a better season than Tejada.

I don't think the AL MVP race is cut-and-dry, but I disagree pretty strongly with most of the names being thrown about too. Rodriguez had a great season, but he's not the overwhelming player Bonds is in the NL. Personally, I'd give the award to either Thome, Ramirez, Giambi, or Rodriguez. No player has made the contributions to their team that those 4 have, regardless of where their teams finished in the standings. I'm not sure how Thome in particular has been largely ignored in the MVP voting when he's clearly had the best season in the AL as a hitter.

Edit #2: While I'm posting tired morning wank, here are my ballot for each league (assuming I'd get 3 choices, I forget how the ballots work):

NL MVP - Bonds/Giles/Edmonds
AL MVP - Thome/Rodriguez/Ramirez
NL CY - Johnson/Oswalt/Schilling
AL CY - Martinez/Zito/Halladay

Jason

crackpott · 10-02-2002, 03:40 PM

Halladay over Lowe? Oswalt over Schilling?

I'm not gonna ask about MVP cause I think you just used OPS off memory.

Thome's season was good. I'm not here to challenge who is in the running for MVP, as I used to think that a player should come from a playoff team, but then i read the criteria which states most valuable to their team. So I am tossed up. A-Rod or Thome were more valuable to their team in the sense they got their team more wins... but how useful were those wins, meaning how valuable were they actually? Similarly, if the A's or whoever finished in first by 30 games, would the wins Tejada got the team be all that useful? Anyway, that wasn't my point.

My issue here is that assuming the voters want a guy from a playoff team (assuming). Why is Soriano being considered more often than Giambi?

BrewedCrew · 10-02-2002, 03:45 PM

2 words Torri Hunter for mvp...?

crackpott · 10-02-2002, 04:16 PM

Talk of that was happening around the all-star break. It died down.

kingfc22 · 10-02-2002, 07:43 PM

Soriano is not even the MVP on his own team let alone the league. I'd have to say Tejada simply because he has come through in the clutch for the A's a number of times. A-Rod is the best player hands down, but the Rangers would still be in last place without him and the award is for the most VALUABLE not BEST player.

twins15 · 10-02-2002, 07:51 PM

Yeah, but if they didn't have ARod, they would have a worse record than the DRays. Even though they took last, I would still vote for Alex Rodriguez.

crackpott · 10-02-2002, 07:53 PM

And if they have a worse record than the D-Rays... so what? They just didn't lose as BADLY... big deal.

Jason Moyer · 10-03-2002, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackpott
Halladay over Lowe? Oswalt over Schilling?

I have issues with Lowe simply because of the 5.2 K/9 would indicate to me that his defense has played a huge role in his low ERA. You're probably right, and I should have him ranked higher than Halladay.

Oswalt and Schilling I think are a legitimate toss up. Schilling I suppose should be ranked higher because of his K/9, BB/9, and K/BB ratios. Oswalt allowed fewer runs than Schililng this year and had a better W/L % relative to his team than Schilling. Oswalt won 67.9% of his decisions on a team that won 51.9% of its games (+18%) while Schilling won 76.7% of his decisions on a team that won 60.5% of its games (+16.2%). I don't really agree with my earlier post, but I'm pointing out a few things that I factored in when making it. Schilling in all likelihood had a better year.

Quote:

I'm not gonna ask about MVP cause I think you just used OPS off memory.

Actually, I used RC/27 adjusted for ballpark with smudging thrown in to account for defense.

Quote:

My issue here is that assuming the voters want a guy from a playoff team (assuming). Why is Soriano being considered more often than Giambi?

3 things that MVP voters like:

1. leading the league in HR and RBI (Rodriguez)
2. coming out of nowhere (Soriano - or Ichiro last year)
3. heavily covered clutch and highlight reel performances (Tejada, Hunter)

If a guy has already won an MVP, he's no longer a story. Giambi is certainly the MVP of the Yankees, but try convincing Joe Morgan or any of the other morons with votes that. Thome, Ramirez, and Rodriguez aren't really news anymore, even though they haven't won the award. Whenever possible, writers give the award to a young player who came out of nowhere or an overachieving vetaran, even if it's clear they weren't the "most valuable" player. Jeff Kent over Barry Bonds? C'mon now. Ichiro over Giambi? Please... Sosa over McGwire? *yawn*

The only time a guy wins the award a second or third time is if it would be an obvious farce if he didn't win. There was no way they could give it to anyone but Bonds last year (or this year). Most years it's not that cut and dry, so the normal rules apply.

Jason

Jason Moyer · 10-03-2002, 04:50 AM

Ok, slow night at work and this was bugging me, so I figured out short-form win shares for the top players in each league. Not all of the results are what I expected. This doesn't factor park effects in, which can smudge the value by 1 or 2, and is why no Colorado players are listed.

NL MVP:

Bonds 57
Giles 44
Guerrero 40
Berkman 38
Abreu 36
Sosa 34
Burrell 32

NL Cy Young:

Johnson 29
Schilling 20
Maddux 20
Glavine 20
Perez 19
Oswalt 19

AL MVP:

Rodriguez 38
Thome 37
Giambi 34
Tejada 31
Soriano 31
Ramirez 27
Hunter 24

AL Cy Young:

Zito 25
Hudson 24
Halladay 24
Martinez 22
Lowe 22

Looking at this, it at least verifies two things I felt pretty strongly about - the NL awards are no-brainers, and both AL awards are pretty much up for grabs.

Jason (sorry for the length)

Specs · 10-05-2002, 07:38 PM

It's a damn good thing he went to New York... he'd never win in Oakland.

ATLANTABRAVES2002FAN · 10-05-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Specs
It's a damn good thing he went to New York... he'd never win in Oakland.

Not so true now, the Yankees have been slayed.

Dargone · 10-05-2002, 08:07 PM

Slayed by my Halos

10-01-2002, 10:24 PM	#1
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	If I were Giambi, I'd be pissed... Last year he got robbed of the MVP by the media's lovechild Ichiro. This year the same thing may happen with Soriano. Neither have numbers even close to Giambi. I hate Giambi since he left the A's for the Yankees, but he really did deserve 3 consecutive MVP's. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

10-01-2002, 10:30 PM	#3
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	Regardless... mainly i'm just pissed that Soriano has a good chance at winning it. And I forget if it was on here or Fanhome, but I remember a lengthy thread why Tejada didn't deserve the award. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

10-01-2002, 10:32 PM	#4
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	I think you could write a lenghty thread on why Soriano, A-Rod or Giambi shouldn't win neither.... However I must agree with you, I think Soriano has too good of a chance of winning it. Not a big fan neither. __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

10-02-2002, 03:40 PM	#6
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	Halladay over Lowe? Oswalt over Schilling? I'm not gonna ask about MVP cause I think you just used OPS off memory. Thome's season was good. I'm not here to challenge who is in the running for MVP, as I used to think that a player should come from a playoff team, but then i read the criteria which states most valuable to their team. So I am tossed up. A-Rod or Thome were more valuable to their team in the sense they got their team more wins... but how useful were those wins, meaning how valuable were they actually? Similarly, if the A's or whoever finished in first by 30 games, would the wins Tejada got the team be all that useful? Anyway, that wasn't my point. My issue here is that assuming the voters want a guy from a playoff team (assuming). Why is Soriano being considered more often than Giambi? __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

10-02-2002, 03:45 PM	#7
BrewedCrew Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Minnesota Posts: 414	2 words Torri Hunter for mvp...? __________________

10-01-2002, 10:28 PM	#2
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	Re: If I were Giambi, I'd be pissed... I'd give the MVP to Tejada. Niether Soriano or Giambi deserves it in my opinion. Be aware that it's not the "Best Player" award, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award, or else I'd give it to Mr. Rodriguez. __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

10-02-2002, 04:16 PM	#8
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	Talk of that was happening around the all-star break. It died down. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

10-02-2002, 07:43 PM	#9
kingfc22 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 651	Soriano is not even the MVP on his own team let alone the league. I'd have to say Tejada simply because he has come through in the clutch for the A's a number of times. A-Rod is the best player hands down, but the Rangers would still be in last place without him and the award is for the most VALUABLE not BEST player. __________________ GO GIANTS GO NINERS GO LAKERS GO BLUE CUBL - Red Earth Firebirds 2000 CL Central Champs NABL - Washington Senators now Buffalo Bandits

10-02-2002, 07:51 PM	#10
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Yeah, but if they didn't have ARod, they would have a worse record than the DRays. Even though they took last, I would still vote for Alex Rodriguez. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

10-02-2002, 07:53 PM	#11
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	And if they have a worse record than the D-Rays... so what? They just didn't lose as BADLY... big deal. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

10-03-2002, 04:50 AM	#13
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,106	Ok, slow night at work and this was bugging me, so I figured out short-form win shares for the top players in each league. Not all of the results are what I expected. This doesn't factor park effects in, which can smudge the value by 1 or 2, and is why no Colorado players are listed. NL MVP: Bonds 57 Giles 44 Guerrero 40 Berkman 38 Abreu 36 Sosa 34 Burrell 32 NL Cy Young: Johnson 29 Schilling 20 Maddux 20 Glavine 20 Perez 19 Oswalt 19 AL MVP: Rodriguez 38 Thome 37 Giambi 34 Tejada 31 Soriano 31 Ramirez 27 Hunter 24 AL Cy Young: Zito 25 Hudson 24 Halladay 24 Martinez 22 Lowe 22 Looking at this, it at least verifies two things I felt pretty strongly about - the NL awards are no-brainers, and both AL awards are pretty much up for grabs. Jason (sorry for the length) __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

10-05-2002, 08:07 PM	#16
Dargone Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Interwebs Posts: 2,862	Slayed by my Halos __________________ I was never one to patiently pick up broken fragments and glue them together again and tell myself that the mended whole was as good as new. What is broken is broken -- and I'd rather remember it as it was at its best than mend it and see the broken places as long as I lived.-Margaret Mitchell