Atlantan wants to buy Expos, move them to PR

Malleus Dei · 09-25-2002, 08:57 PM

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news/ap/...uertorico.html

"An Atlanta businessman is leading a group of investors that are interested in purchasing the Montreal Expos and moving the team to San Juan, Puerto Rico, in 2004...A decision is expected as early as this winter."

09-25-2002, 09:01 PM

I, for one, hope this NEVER happens in my lifetime ...

twins15 · 09-25-2002, 09:11 PM

I don't see this happening.

atomheart · 09-25-2002, 10:11 PM

I don't think other teams will stand for this, due to travel considerations. Kind of an interesting concept, though. I'd like to see MLB teams all around the world. Then, perhaps we can have a real "world series".

Mal, thanks for posting stuff like this. I always enjoy your posts.

Old Man · 09-25-2002, 10:16 PM

This concept is very far-fetched.

Jason Moyer · 09-25-2002, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atomheart
I don't think other teams will stand for this, due to travel considerations. Kind of an interesting concept, though. I'd like to see MLB teams all around the world. Then, perhaps we can have a real "world series".

This isn't a flame, but am I the only one who finds it odd that people treat Peurto Rico like it's a foreign country?

Jason

atomheart · 09-25-2002, 11:28 PM

Yes.

I was thinking along the lines of culture. But I see your point.

The concept reminds me of the World Cup in soccer.

Long_Long_Name · 09-25-2002, 11:30 PM

Malleus, I tank you too for this kind of posts, very entertaining. I'd like to see Tampa move to San Juan though, if the Expos moved it would have to be in DR

LMNt: The synthesized love machine · 09-25-2002, 11:35 PM

I'd like to see a team in Hawaii. That woulds make a helluva backdrop for a stadium

blubbla · 09-26-2002, 12:43 AM

I question wether this would be feasable, for reasons previously stated.

The travel headaches will likely be the item that kills this...

Malleus Dei · 09-26-2002, 12:51 AM

You are all welcome.

I was in Puerto Rico recently (I have a relative who works there) and it is indeed part of the U.S. and very nice to boot. The weather is great, the people are big baseball fans, and the food is good. You can even get drunk at the bar where they invented the pina colada.

Scott Vibert · 09-26-2002, 09:54 AM

The travel isn't really all that terrible its just a little farther from San Diego to Montreal as it is from San Diego to San Juan. (I chose San Diego to Montreal because that was in theory the longest road trip in the National League)

The problem is going to be the economics. Puerto Rico is the wealthiest area in the Carribean, however it's per capita income is lower than the rest of the US. The business community would likely not be able to spend the same amount for luxury suites in San Juan, and the government probably can't afford the entire cost to improve the stadium, which currently only seats 20,000.

The plans called for the stadium to be increased another 20,000, but with just 40,000 seats, I'd find it hard to believe that the ownership group could survive on the prices they'd need to charge to allow the locals to afford tickets. (Now the article mentions some paid up to $75 dollars a ticket for a one time exhibition, but that was with a smaller capacity and not during a season where there were 81 games to choose from for your attendence dollars) San Juan is also not known as a media hot bed, so big money from TV and broadcast revenues would be unlikely.

Now I think the team would be supported by the community quite well, but without a mammoth stadium to try and offset lower ticket prices, a lack of corporate purchase in the non-existent luxury suites, and less than top dollar from broadcast raises some serious questions.

That said is this any worse than the club being in Montreal? In Montreal IIRC the club has no season long English broadcast, and last I knew the French broadcasts may not have been for all the games (Long_Long_Name or one of the Expo fans please correct me if I'm mistaken). The clubs attendence figures, while better this season have been poor. MLB as owners clearly does not want to take care of the club, and manager Frank Robinson doesn't necessarily want to be back. Additionally in San Juan they avoid the exchange rate problems of taking in Canadian Dollars and paying out American. So they would go from poor revenues in Montreal to poor revenues, but being out of MLB's hair in San Juan. Plus the club being in San Juan would mean that when the ownership group sold the team, they could sell them as a prime candidate for relocation to someone willing to overpay... or wait for MLB to possibly revisit contraction and take the buyout.

Perhaps the possible owners are looking at this as a club they can place in a place to get good support, but with the poor economics have an excuse for keeping salaries low. Then they can collect the revenue sharing money and turn a profit year after year, until they sell out the team for a large profit...

CMH · 09-26-2002, 11:18 AM

Puerto Rico is about a 4 hour flight from New York. Thats about the same distance a team in the east coast has to travel to fly to the west coast.

travel problems? none.

however, what ScotVib mentioned about economics is a good point.

I would love to see a team in Puerto Rico...only if it could work out. MLB seemlingly has a history of putting teams in terrible places over the last decade. There are far more rich and supportive areas in the U.S. before P.R.

that being said, having a team in P.R. wouldnt give me a headache. I really dont understand what's all the fuss.

i wonder how people are gonna react when David Stern finally goes by his word and expands the NBA into Europe. could happen in 5 years.

VT Os fan · 09-26-2002, 01:38 PM

If they're looking to move the 'spos to another place where most of the population doesn't speak English they could always move the team to Los Angeles.

CMH · 09-26-2002, 03:02 PM

well the main languages of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English.

In addition, 89% of the population over the age of 15 is literate.

In many spanish speaking countries signs, menus, etc. are written in both english and spanish. In addition, those countries also receive english speaking networks such as NBC, CNN, ESPN, etc.

I doubt there should be an issue with finding enough people in P.R. who speak English. Especially if baseball markets its game to people between the ages of 15-41. I'm positive that most elders older than 60-70 years of age in P.R. have no English speaking skills b/c english was not as predominant during the time they were 15-41. However, anyone in that age range should be fluent in Spanish and have a very good understanding of English (since English is taught in schools -- even more so than Spanish is taught in the States.)

vtbub · 09-26-2002, 03:20 PM

San Juan can't be any worse than Montreal.

Despite the fans that defend them on this board, nobody could care less about them. They aren't on TV. They aren't on radio. They play in the worst ballpark in the majors. When they were good, they didn't draw great then, ever.

I live 90 miles south of Montreal, you'd think that they were a million miles away. Habs preseason games get more ink than the Expos and we have their short season A club here in town!

Whether bad ownership or whatever killed this franchise is debateable. The Maple Leafs had bad ownership, but Tornto never gave up on them. The Bruins are too cheap, but yet the Fleet Center will be full again this year.

Montreal gave up on the Expos in 1981 after they lost to the Dodgers. The Habs spoiled them on winning and the Expos couldn't deliver. The rank and file fan quit on them. Unfortunately the owners quit on those who stayed.

While I applaud those who remain vigilant, Les Expos should have been contracted along with Milwakuee and the two Florida teams.

San Juan, D.C., even Burlington, VT would be better than the status quo.

09-26-2002, 03:35 PM

See these threads for why Long_Long_Name and I don't agree with you ...

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=14941

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=14272

vtbub · 09-26-2002, 04:43 PM

Tell me point by point why I'm wrong.

Listen, I've had my heart broken every year for years by the Yankees, Mets, or anyone else that has had the Red Sox number.

You are a true fan. If we were talking about Tampa Bay, or Milwakuee, would you feel the same way.

Scott Vibert · 09-26-2002, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
Tell me point by point why I'm wrong.

For the record I am not a Montreal fan, and would like to see them move.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
San Juan can't be any worse than Montreal.

Despite the fans that defend them on this board, nobody could care less about them. They aren't on TV. They aren't on radio. They play in the worst ballpark in the majors. When they were good, they didn't draw great then, ever.

Montreal Attendence NL Rank from 1981 until the strike:
1981-3; 1982-2; 1983-2; 1984-8; 1985-8; 1986-10; 1987-9; 1988-11; 1989-11; 1990-10; 1991-12; 1992-10; 1993-11; 1994-9

Even during the low ranking years they were regularly out drawing the Yankees (throughout the early 90's) and Braves (throughout the late 80's) among other teams (sometimes doubling their attendence). Each of these seasons even though they ranked fairly lowly in the late-early 90's they averaged over 1 million fans (a big number back then) and drew over 20,000 a game. In fact their average attendance most of those years would be better than Chicago, Philadelphia, Toronto, Detroit, Kansas City, Tampa, and Florida (as well as their current level) this season.

I live 90 miles south of Montreal, you'd think that they were a million miles away. Habs preseason games get more ink than the Expos and we have their short season A club here in town!

The Burlington area isn't exactly a sports hot bed. Besides Vermont is generally pretty solid Red Sox territory. The Burlington Free Press's sports coverage is generally laughable (For example todays headlines (Internet Edition, I no longer live there) were High school sports, Vermont Expos, VT College wrap up, and a UVM Hockey article), I hated reading that papers sports coverage while I was up there. Aside from UVM Hockey the Free Press/Burlington TV statiosn generally doens't offer much coverage of any team. The amount of press they get in Burlington (in a different country) really is irrelevant to Montreal's status as a baseball town.

Whether bad ownership or whatever killed this franchise is debateable. The Maple Leafs had bad ownership, but Tornto never gave up on them. The Bruins are too cheap, but yet the Fleet Center will be full again this year.

These are two hockey towns with "Original Six" teams that have long traditions. A better analogy would be to compare the Oakland Golden Seals, the Kansas City Scouts/Colorado Rockies, Hartford Whalers, or even the Minnesota North Stars to the Expos. These were areas which had supported minor league hockey, got NHL franchises and between ownership mismanagement and lack of stadium revenues (attendence/and luxury suites, etc.) lost their teams.

Montreal gave up on the Expos in 1981 after they lost to the Dodgers. The Habs spoiled them on winning and the Expos couldn't deliver. The rank and file fan quit on them. Unfortunately the owners quit on those who stayed.

Clearly the Expos fans didn't give up right away... but as the product went south in the mid to late 80's the fandom deminished, which is typical. During that time period Atlanta was regularly finishing seasons with attendence figures below 1,000,000, and sometimes the Expos approximately doubled the attendence of the Braves, the similarities were that the Braves absolutely stank during this time period and played in the aging Fulton County Stadium. When the team began to play better the fans came back.

While I don't agree with everything you said, the current state of baseball in Montreal is such that I don't think the franchise can be successful whle remaining in Montreal.

Whether its the fault of the fans or the owners the financial realities would seem to not allow the franchise to remain in Montreal and remain competitve (even with revenue sharing).

09-26-2002, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
Tell me point by point why I'm wrong.

We already did that in the threads I've mentioned - if you need more info about it I would recommend Long_Long_Name post it since he is in Montreal and has been an Expos fan longer than I have

And for the people supporting a move to Puerto Rico, you can't really think this will be any better than Montreal? Give Montreal a new stadium, show the fans they won't get screwed over by ownership and by Major League Baseball anymore, and they will come back.

As far as the language issues - this was mentioned in earlier threads as having contributed to the problems in Montreal. Why would you move this team to another city with a similar language situation?

Honestly I can't believe we are even talking about a move to San Juan - it just makes no sense given the location, size of the market, etc. A team in Puerto Rico, by about its 2nd or 3rd year there, would have less total attendance for the season than Montreal did this year.

09-25-2002, 09:11 PM	#3
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	I don't see this happening. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-25-2002, 11:28 PM	#7
atomheart Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 454	Yes. I was thinking along the lines of culture. But I see your point. The concept reminds me of the World Cup in soccer. Last edited by atomheart; 09-25-2002 at 11:30 PM.

09-25-2002, 11:30 PM	#8
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	Malleus, I tank you too for this kind of posts, very entertaining. I'd like to see Tampa move to San Juan though, if the Expos moved it would have to be in DR __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

09-25-2002, 11:35 PM	#9
LMNt: The synthesized love machine Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 75	I'd like to see a team in Hawaii. That woulds make a helluva backdrop for a stadium __________________

09-26-2002, 09:54 AM	#12
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,249	The travel isn't really all that terrible its just a little farther from San Diego to Montreal as it is from San Diego to San Juan. (I chose San Diego to Montreal because that was in theory the longest road trip in the National League) The problem is going to be the economics. Puerto Rico is the wealthiest area in the Carribean, however it's per capita income is lower than the rest of the US. The business community would likely not be able to spend the same amount for luxury suites in San Juan, and the government probably can't afford the entire cost to improve the stadium, which currently only seats 20,000. The plans called for the stadium to be increased another 20,000, but with just 40,000 seats, I'd find it hard to believe that the ownership group could survive on the prices they'd need to charge to allow the locals to afford tickets. (Now the article mentions some paid up to $75 dollars a ticket for a one time exhibition, but that was with a smaller capacity and not during a season where there were 81 games to choose from for your attendence dollars) San Juan is also not known as a media hot bed, so big money from TV and broadcast revenues would be unlikely. Now I think the team would be supported by the community quite well, but without a mammoth stadium to try and offset lower ticket prices, a lack of corporate purchase in the non-existent luxury suites, and less than top dollar from broadcast raises some serious questions. That said is this any worse than the club being in Montreal? In Montreal IIRC the club has no season long English broadcast, and last I knew the French broadcasts may not have been for all the games (Long_Long_Name or one of the Expo fans please correct me if I'm mistaken). The clubs attendence figures, while better this season have been poor. MLB as owners clearly does not want to take care of the club, and manager Frank Robinson doesn't necessarily want to be back. Additionally in San Juan they avoid the exchange rate problems of taking in Canadian Dollars and paying out American. So they would go from poor revenues in Montreal to poor revenues, but being out of MLB's hair in San Juan. Plus the club being in San Juan would mean that when the ownership group sold the team, they could sell them as a prime candidate for relocation to someone willing to overpay... or wait for MLB to possibly revisit contraction and take the buyout. Perhaps the possible owners are looking at this as a club they can place in a place to get good support, but with the poor economics have an excuse for keeping salaries low. Then they can collect the revenue sharing money and turn a profit year after year, until they sell out the team for a large profit... Last edited by Scott Vibert; 09-26-2002 at 12:33 PM.

09-25-2002, 09:01 PM	#2
ExposFan08 Guest Posts: n/a	I, for one, hope this NEVER happens in my lifetime ...

09-25-2002, 10:11 PM	#4
atomheart Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 454	I don't think other teams will stand for this, due to travel considerations. Kind of an interesting concept, though. I'd like to see MLB teams all around the world. Then, perhaps we can have a real "world series". Mal, thanks for posting stuff like this. I always enjoy your posts.

09-25-2002, 10:16 PM	#5
Old Man Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 464	This concept is very far-fetched.

09-26-2002, 12:43 AM	#10
blubbla Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Herscher, IL Posts: 2,458	I question wether this would be feasable, for reasons previously stated. The travel headaches will likely be the item that kills this...

09-26-2002, 11:18 AM	#13
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	Puerto Rico is about a 4 hour flight from New York. Thats about the same distance a team in the east coast has to travel to fly to the west coast. travel problems? none. however, what ScotVib mentioned about economics is a good point. I would love to see a team in Puerto Rico...only if it could work out. MLB seemlingly has a history of putting teams in terrible places over the last decade. There are far more rich and supportive areas in the U.S. before P.R. that being said, having a team in P.R. wouldnt give me a headache. I really dont understand what's all the fuss. i wonder how people are gonna react when David Stern finally goes by his word and expands the NBA into Europe. could happen in 5 years.

09-26-2002, 01:38 PM	#14
VT Os fan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia Tech (Blacksburg, Virginia) Posts: 226	If they're looking to move the 'spos to another place where most of the population doesn't speak English they could always move the team to Los Angeles. __________________ "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." -- Ayn Rand

09-26-2002, 03:02 PM	#15
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	well the main languages of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English. In addition, 89% of the population over the age of 15 is literate. In many spanish speaking countries signs, menus, etc. are written in both english and spanish. In addition, those countries also receive english speaking networks such as NBC, CNN, ESPN, etc. I doubt there should be an issue with finding enough people in P.R. who speak English. Especially if baseball markets its game to people between the ages of 15-41. I'm positive that most elders older than 60-70 years of age in P.R. have no English speaking skills b/c english was not as predominant during the time they were 15-41. However, anyone in that age range should be fluent in Spanish and have a very good understanding of English (since English is taught in schools -- even more so than Spanish is taught in the States.)

09-26-2002, 03:20 PM	#16
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	San Juan can't be any worse than Montreal. Despite the fans that defend them on this board, nobody could care less about them. They aren't on TV. They aren't on radio. They play in the worst ballpark in the majors. When they were good, they didn't draw great then, ever. I live 90 miles south of Montreal, you'd think that they were a million miles away. Habs preseason games get more ink than the Expos and we have their short season A club here in town! Whether bad ownership or whatever killed this franchise is debateable. The Maple Leafs had bad ownership, but Tornto never gave up on them. The Bruins are too cheap, but yet the Fleet Center will be full again this year. Montreal gave up on the Expos in 1981 after they lost to the Dodgers. The Habs spoiled them on winning and the Expos couldn't deliver. The rank and file fan quit on them. Unfortunately the owners quit on those who stayed. While I applaud those who remain vigilant, Les Expos should have been contracted along with Milwakuee and the two Florida teams. San Juan, D.C., even Burlington, VT would be better than the status quo.

09-26-2002, 03:35 PM	#17
ExposFan08 Guest Posts: n/a	See these threads for why Long_Long_Name and I don't agree with you ... http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=14941 http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=14272

09-26-2002, 04:43 PM	#18
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Tell me point by point why I'm wrong. Listen, I've had my heart broken every year for years by the Yankees, Mets, or anyone else that has had the Red Sox number. You are a true fan. If we were talking about Tampa Bay, or Milwakuee, would you feel the same way. Last edited by vtbub; 09-26-2002 at 05:09 PM.