Something out of whack

mm7607 · 06-17-2006, 11:56 AM

I set up a major league, no minors and the game sim by itself while I slept. The first 10-15 years were ok but after that the game went haywire, Players didnt retire and 90-100 homers a season was the norm. I have guys still playing full time at 83 years old. Plus .400 avj is also the norm. Pitchers seem OK execpt they dont retire. Using the patched version. Anyone else ever see this?

battists · 07-06-2006, 04:57 PM

Hi mm,

Sorry for the slow response to your thread.

Are you still experiencing this issue? If so, could you provide us some more information about the configuration of your league?

Was this fictional? The standard MAL? Historical?

Thanks very much,

Steve

mm7607 · 07-06-2006, 09:21 PM

It was a fictional league started in 1900. I let the computer run everything untill around 1955 then stopeed. Had players in there 90's still playing. Homerun leaders was 90 to 100+ per season. Hitters only struk out about 10-15 times a season. Would be great for slow pitch softball.

battists · 07-06-2006, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm7607

It was a fictional league started in 1900. I let the computer run everything untill around 1955 then stopeed. Had players in there 90's still playing. Homerun leaders was 90 to 100+ per season. Hitters only struk out about 10-15 times a season. Would be great for slow pitch softball.

Do you remember if you changed any of the settings? Or was this just a straight, default fictional league?

Thanks,

Steve

mm7607 · 07-06-2006, 10:17 PM

No, it was pretty much a strait fictional league. 2 leagues 16 teams. I had 4-man rotation, endurance high. I noticed the pitchers are retiring as they should. Just position players not retiring.

Zeyes · 07-06-2006, 11:09 PM

On a hunch...did you have no amateur draft? If so, it might be the same issue I mentioned here.

The longest I simmed those two leagues was 21 years or so, and the position player ages weren't too bad at that point (although definitely on the old side, on average), but I can easily see how that might go completely out of whack with another couple decades under the belt.

I actually might still have one of those saves...I'll check later.

Edit: Yup, still got that game, but it was only simmed for 16 years after all (through 2021, hence my mix-up). What's intriguing is that this league turned into a pitcher's league after about 10 years when the position player resupply fell apart (4.54 ERA for 2006-2015, 4.05 ERA for 2016-2021)...I'm stunned to read that mm7607's league became a hitter's paradise, but maybe my 6-year window into the developing geezer's league wasn't long enough.

battists · 07-07-2006, 08:27 AM

Zeyes, there is a bug where imported leagues grow very pitcher-heavy. Was that an imported league?

I just did a straight fictional league last night, no minors. I simmed for 120 years, and the league ERAs and batting averages were pretty close the whole darned time. Most homeruns in all of that time was 68.

I'll leave this open for a bit longer, and we'll see if we can come up with a specific scenario that behaves poorly. We're more than open to tweaking, if we can find and replicate the issue!

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Zeyes, there is a bug where imported leagues grow very pitcher-heavy. Was that an imported league?

Nope, fictional. 8 teams in a single, two-division league, MLEs and PCMs at the default (this league was going to be my baseline league for some MLE experimentation, but I got sidetracked).

My hitter-pitcher balance certainly wasn't outrageous or anything as far as the actual results go (not up to that point anyway), but the lack of free agent batters was definitely noticeable, and if the retirement logic is tied to the competitive pressure by younger players, I suspect my league would have seen the same kind of 70+ year old active players as mm7607's did.

In fact, maybe the improved retirement logic in patch 2 (to deal with players retiring way too early) is taking care of this opposite problem as well, which would be nice.

I'll try to whip up another small league like that today and see what that one turns out.

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 10:45 AM

dola,

position player creation problem reproduced once again. Here's how many free agent pitchers and batters there were available on Opening Day each year:

Code:

Year  P    B
2006   54  86
2007   75  96
2008   91  84
2009  106  55
2010  117  29
2011  133  22
2012  141  14
2013  153  11
2014  160   3
2015  175   1

There are 117 retired pitchers and 149 retired batters after those 10 seasons, which looks pretty balanced...unfortunately I forgot to check for that earlier, so I don't know if batters retired at an abnormally high rate in the first few years. Still, there should definitely be more than just 1 free agent position player.

battists · 07-07-2006, 11:10 AM

Zeyes, what was the league config? I'll do the same thing in the Patch 2 version and see what it comes up with.

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Zeyes, what was the league config? I'll do the same thing in the Patch 2 version and see what it comes up with.

One fictional ML-level league of two divisions with 4 teams each, with an inaugural draft
no minors (40-man roster deactivated as well)
roster limit 25
trading enabled
no amateur draft
126 games
free agency and arbitration set to one year, rest of financials unchanged
Strategy & Equivalencies all default
Global Setup all default, except scouts and coaches deactivated

I think that's all that should be important...

battists · 07-07-2006, 11:50 AM

It's gotta be the "no amateur draft" thing...

Will try it though.

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

It's gotta be the "no amateur draft" thing...

Will try it though.

Yep, it's definitely a problem in how the game spawns free agents in the off-season...the pitcher-to-batter ratio is obviously too high, though it's surprising that this (apparently) doesn't affect how players are created for a draft if it's enabled.

Note that the total number of free agents seems to be fairly steady (always around 140 to 180 in my test), so it seems that the game creates enough FA's, just not the right types.

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 12:44 PM

I've simmed ahead to 2025 now, and for kicks I checked how many new free agents were created as the off-season started: 26 pitchers, and only 6 position players (a C, three 1B, a 3B, and a LF/CF).

FWIW, on the same day, there were 21 retirements: 16 pitchers, and 5 position players (two corner OF, a C/1B, a pure 1B whose last position inexplicably is set to Catcher, and a middle IF).

All of these 5 guys were between 33 and 35 years old, and had been under contract (no surprise; there's nobody else available) - two of them didn't even play a single game though. One had a cup of coffee that placed him barely above replacement level, another guy got only a handful of at-bats in which he had an OPS under .400, and the final guy was a regular player but also had a miserable OPS of below .600 in his last season. So basically, it's only the total scrubs and half-dead guys who are retiring, which makes sense given that there's nobody to replace them.

Four of these five guys had managed to amass a significantly negative career VORP, but even though they sucked they'd all managed to find gainful employment for 10+ years and get at-bats. The fifth guy actually had a decent career (3x All-Star, 2x Gold Glove), but his ratings had tumbled in the last year, so that's the only retirement that probably would have happened at this point in time in a non-messed-up league as well.

Not so surprisingly, this league again has turned into a pitcher's league, at least compared to the hitter's paradise it used to be:

2006-2010 ERA: 5.48, AVG: .288
2011-2015 ERA: 5.31, AVG: .287
2016-2020 ERA: 4.83, AVG: .278
2021-2025 ERA: 4.50, AVG: .270

What's interesting is that the hitters still aren't that much older than the pitchers...125 hitters total - six are 40+ years old, another four are 35+, and then thirty-five are 30+. I have a feeling the original poster's league suffered even more severe anomalies than mine does.

On to 2045...

battists · 07-07-2006, 12:48 PM

Zeyes,

Can you possibly try this in a league with ammys on, and is the FA balance OK after 10 years?

I logged this as 2101. Patch 2 shows the same behavior.

Thanks!

Steve

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Zeyes,

Can you possibly try this in a league with ammys on, and is the FA balance OK after 10 years?

Will do, but that game (as long as I'm playing without minors) is likely to suffer from the "productive players retire too young" problem that dougaiton and others have identified when drafted players overwhelm the league (which got fixed in Patch 2, I think), so I'm not sure the FA balance will show anything useful other than confirmation that the retirement mechanism doesn't favour pitchers or hitters. We'll see...

battists · 07-07-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeyes

Will do, but that game (as long as I'm playing without minors) is likely to suffer from the "productive players retire too young" problem that dougaiton and others have identified when drafted players overwhelm the league (which got fixed in Patch 2, I think), so I'm not sure the FA balance will show anything useful other than confirmation that the retirement mechanism doesn't favour pitchers or hitters. We'll see...

Well, download the patch, then, man!

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Well, download the patch, then, man!

Will do as ordered, sir!

Zeyes · 07-07-2006, 03:55 PM

After Patch 2: Looks okay if the amateur draft is enabled...

Code:

Year    P   B
2006    49 104
2007    53 118
2008    45  95
2009    31  80
2010    31  69
2011    23  52
2012    22  49
2013    24  51
2014    20  35
2015    16  32
2016 15  29
2017 10  17
2018  5  20
2019  4  10

Well, the pitcher:batter ratio looks okay. The absolute drop can mostly be accounted for by the fact that the teams keep piling up talent on the reserve roster. I tried expanding the draft from 5 to 10 rounds after 2019, but that just made the reserve rosters even bigger (all teams are at 45+ players on the reserve now, after two years with the enlarged draft).***

(I sure wish it was possible to play without reserve rosters, or at least put a limit on them...oh well, different subject.)

I'll also confirm battists' findings that the p:b ratio is still messed up with there are no drafts, although the drop isn't quite as precipitously as it used to be (I had 187:21 after ten years). Still, probably worth fixing for those who want to play without minors.

*** There's a different bug in there, or at least a questionable design choice, which I'll open a new thread for.

battists · 07-13-2006, 11:38 AM

This has been claimed fixed in the next patch.

Thanks,

Steve

06-17-2006, 11:56 AM	#1
mm7607 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Originally from Fla, now in Ky Posts: 709	Something out of whack I set up a major league, no minors and the game sim by itself while I slept. The first 10-15 years were ok but after that the game went haywire, Players didnt retire and 90-100 homers a season was the norm. I have guys still playing full time at 83 years old. Plus .400 avj is also the norm. Pitchers seem OK execpt they dont retire. Using the patched version. Anyone else ever see this?

07-06-2006, 11:09 PM	#6
Zeyes All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 818	On a hunch...did you have no amateur draft? If so, it might be the same issue I mentioned here. The longest I simmed those two leagues was 21 years or so, and the position player ages weren't too bad at that point (although definitely on the old side, on average), but I can easily see how that might go completely out of whack with another couple decades under the belt. I actually might still have one of those saves...I'll check later. Edit: Yup, still got that game, but it was only simmed for 16 years after all (through 2021, hence my mix-up). What's intriguing is that this league turned into a pitcher's league after about 10 years when the position player resupply fell apart (4.54 ERA for 2006-2015, 4.05 ERA for 2016-2021)...I'm stunned to read that mm7607's league became a hitter's paradise, but maybe my 6-year window into the developing geezer's league wasn't long enough. Last edited by Zeyes; 07-06-2006 at 11:30 PM.

07-07-2006, 10:45 AM	#9
Zeyes All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 818	dola, position player creation problem reproduced once again. Here's how many free agent pitchers and batters there were available on Opening Day each year: Code: Year P B 2006 54 86 2007 75 96 2008 91 84 2009 106 55 2010 117 29 2011 133 22 2012 141 14 2013 153 11 2014 160 3 2015 175 1 There are 117 retired pitchers and 149 retired batters after those 10 seasons, which looks pretty balanced...unfortunately I forgot to check for that earlier, so I don't know if batters retired at an abnormally high rate in the first few years. Still, there should definitely be more than just 1 free agent position player.

07-07-2006, 12:44 PM	#14
Zeyes All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 818	I've simmed ahead to 2025 now, and for kicks I checked how many new free agents were created as the off-season started: 26 pitchers, and only 6 position players (a C, three 1B, a 3B, and a LF/CF). FWIW, on the same day, there were 21 retirements: 16 pitchers, and 5 position players (two corner OF, a C/1B, a pure 1B whose last position inexplicably is set to Catcher, and a middle IF). All of these 5 guys were between 33 and 35 years old, and had been under contract (no surprise; there's nobody else available) - two of them didn't even play a single game though. One had a cup of coffee that placed him barely above replacement level, another guy got only a handful of at-bats in which he had an OPS under .400, and the final guy was a regular player but also had a miserable OPS of below .600 in his last season. So basically, it's only the total scrubs and half-dead guys who are retiring, which makes sense given that there's nobody to replace them. Four of these five guys had managed to amass a significantly negative career VORP, but even though they sucked they'd all managed to find gainful employment for 10+ years and get at-bats. The fifth guy actually had a decent career (3x All-Star, 2x Gold Glove), but his ratings had tumbled in the last year, so that's the only retirement that probably would have happened at this point in time in a non-messed-up league as well. Not so surprisingly, this league again has turned into a pitcher's league, at least compared to the hitter's paradise it used to be: 2006-2010 ERA: 5.48, AVG: .288 2011-2015 ERA: 5.31, AVG: .287 2016-2020 ERA: 4.83, AVG: .278 2021-2025 ERA: 4.50, AVG: .270 What's interesting is that the hitters still aren't that much older than the pitchers...125 hitters total - six are 40+ years old, another four are 35+, and then thirty-five are 30+. I have a feeling the original poster's league suffered even more severe anomalies than mine does. On to 2045... Last edited by Zeyes; 07-07-2006 at 12:49 PM.

07-07-2006, 03:55 PM	#19
Zeyes All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 818	After Patch 2: Looks okay if the amateur draft is enabled... Code: Year P B 2006 49 104 2007 53 118 2008 45 95 2009 31 80 2010 31 69 2011 23 52 2012 22 49 2013 24 51 2014 20 35 2015 16 32 2016 15 29 2017 10 17 2018 5 20 2019 4 10 Well, the pitcher:batter ratio looks okay. The absolute drop can mostly be accounted for by the fact that the teams keep piling up talent on the reserve roster. I tried expanding the draft from 5 to 10 rounds after 2019, but that just made the reserve rosters even bigger (all teams are at 45+ players on the reserve now, after two years with the enlarged draft).* (I sure wish it was possible to play without reserve rosters, or at least put a limit on them...oh well, different subject.) I'll also confirm battists' findings that the p:b ratio is still messed up with there are no drafts, although the drop isn't quite as precipitously as it used to be (I had 187:21 after ten years). Still, probably worth fixing for those who want to play without minors. * There's a different bug in there, or at least a questionable design choice, which I'll open a new thread for.

07-06-2006, 04:57 PM	#2
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Hi mm, Sorry for the slow response to your thread. Are you still experiencing this issue? If so, could you provide us some more information about the configuration of your league? Was this fictional? The standard MAL? Historical? Thanks very much, Steve

07-06-2006, 09:21 PM	#3
mm7607 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Originally from Fla, now in Ky Posts: 709	It was a fictional league started in 1900. I let the computer run everything untill around 1955 then stopeed. Had players in there 90's still playing. Homerun leaders was 90 to 100+ per season. Hitters only struk out about 10-15 times a season. Would be great for slow pitch softball.

07-06-2006, 10:17 PM	#5
mm7607 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Originally from Fla, now in Ky Posts: 709	No, it was pretty much a strait fictional league. 2 leagues 16 teams. I had 4-man rotation, endurance high. I noticed the pitchers are retiring as they should. Just position players not retiring.

07-07-2006, 08:27 AM	#7
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Zeyes, there is a bug where imported leagues grow very pitcher-heavy. Was that an imported league? I just did a straight fictional league last night, no minors. I simmed for 120 years, and the league ERAs and batting averages were pretty close the whole darned time. Most homeruns in all of that time was 68. I'll leave this open for a bit longer, and we'll see if we can come up with a specific scenario that behaves poorly. We're more than open to tweaking, if we can find and replicate the issue!

07-07-2006, 11:10 AM	#10
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Zeyes, what was the league config? I'll do the same thing in the Patch 2 version and see what it comes up with.

07-07-2006, 11:50 AM	#12
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	It's gotta be the "no amateur draft" thing... Will try it though.

07-07-2006, 12:48 PM	#15
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	Zeyes, Can you possibly try this in a league with ammys on, and is the FA balance OK after 10 years? I logged this as 2101. Patch 2 shows the same behavior. Thanks! Steve

07-13-2006, 11:38 AM	#20
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	This has been claimed fixed in the next patch. Thanks, Steve