OOTP-TS Baseball Hall Of Fame - First Basemen, poll 1

andymac · 01-31-2006, 05:30 PM

Eckstein 4 Prez · 01-31-2006, 06:37 PM

I wonder if we'll collectively be smart enough to induct all three of the unquestionably qualified 19th century first basemen.*

* - darkhorse: I know Start's got a pretty good argument as well, but I think there are only three that are HoF players beyond the shadow of a doubt.

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 06:52 PM

Mule Suttles is the Negro League's career leader in home runs. Below are his major league equivalencies and the link to his discussion at the Hall of Merit. Suttles career OBP was estimated to be .366.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...n/mule_suttles

BWS = Batting WinShares
FWS = Fielding WinShares

Code:

Year    BA        SA    Games   PA    BWS    FWS   Total   Pos
1923   0.253    0.346    75    315    6.3    1.7    8.0    lf
1924   0.299    0.417   154    647   10.4    3.5   13.9    lf
1925   0.371    0.583   154    647   25.7    2.7   28.4    1b
1926   0.384    0.794   154    647   41.6    2.5   44.1    1b
1927   0.368    0.687    51    214   11.5    0.8   12.3    1b
1928   0.315    0.561   120    504   19.3    1.7   21.0    1b
1929   0.297    0.536   145    609   16.7    2.2   18.9    1b
1930   0.331    0.614   150    630   28.5    2.4   30.9    1b
1931   0.282    0.505   148    622   18.8    2.8   21.6    lf
1932   0.290    0.500   140    588   16.6    2.0   18.6    1b
1933   0.278    0.494   145    609   21.0    2.2   23.2    1b
1934   0.270    0.467   140    588   12.3    2.3   14.6    1b
1935   0.273    0.507   154    647   19.3    2.2   21.5    1b
1936   0.302    0.547   145    609   15.0    1.9   16.9    1b
1937   0.289    0.583   140    588   23.2    2.1   25.3    lf
1938   0.255    0.480   140    588   10.5    1.9   12.4    1b
1939   0.249    0.464   130    546   13.0    1.7   14.7    1b
1940   0.232    0.387   100    420    4.5    1.6    6.1    lf
1941   0.147    0.204    35    147    0.0    0.5    0.5    lf
car.   0.295    0.524  2266   10165 314.2   38.7  352.9

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

darkhorse: I know Start's got a pretty good argument as well, but I think there are only three that are HoF players beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Start had a lengthy and brilliant career before the National Association got underway. He is a HOF'er through and through.

tim_uwrf · 01-31-2006, 07:06 PM

I voted for everyone except Camilli. I thought they all deserved getting in.

Cyclone792 · 01-31-2006, 07:14 PM

I saved the text files for win shares figures when I did a similar series of HOF polls for another forum. I didn't know which one of the three threads to put it in so I'll just place it here ... just a note that I'm merely copy/pasting this data in so there may be candidates listed below that are not on this ballot and there may be guys on this ballot that may not be listed below ...

Code:

Player          Career WS   Peak WS   WS per 162  Top Season       Era
Joe Adcock          236         88       19.52         25       Integration
Dick Allen          342        170       31.68         41       Integration
Cap Anson           381        123       27.12         30       19th Century
Jake Beckley        318         97       21.59         23       19th Century
Jim Bottomley       258        127       20.99         30       Early Modern to WWII
Dan Brouthers       355        138       34.38         34       19th Century
Bill Buckner        226         81       14.55         21       Post Integration
Dolph Camilli       224        135       24.35         29       Integration
Norm Cash           315        130       24.43         42       Integration
Phil Cavarretta     237        114       18.91         30       Early Modern to WWII
Orlando Cepeda      310        130       23.64         34       Integration
Chris Chambliss     221         94       16.46         21       Post Integration
Frank Chance        237        143       29.86         35       Early Modern to WWII
Will Clark          330        168       27.05         44       Post Integration

Code:

Player          Career WS   Peak WS   WS per 162  Top Season       Era
Roger Connor        363        145       29.45         36       19th Century
Cecil Cooper        241        127       20.59         29       Post Integration
Jake Daubert        263        101       21.15         27       Early Modern to WWII
Harry Davis         238        117       21.60         31       Early Modern to WWII
Ron Fairly          269        102       17.85         26       Integration
Elbie Fletcher*     185        118       21.18         28       Early Modern to WWII
Jack Fournier       231        127       24.46         34       Early Modern to WWII
Jimmie Foxx         435        173       30.41         41       Early Modern to WWII
Steve Garvey        279        124       19.38         27       Post Integration
Lou Gehrig          489        193       36.61         44       Early Modern to WWII
Hank Greenberg*     267        135       31.03         34       Early Modern to WWII
Mike Hargrove       212        110       20.61         25       Post Integration
Keith Hernandez     311        136       24.13         33       Post Integration
Gil Hodges          263        129       20.57         29       Integration

* Missed playing time due to WWII

Code:

Player          Career WS   Peak WS   WS per 162  Top Season       Era
Kent Hrbek          230        104       21.33         25       Post Integration
Joe Judge           278         95       20.74         22       Early Modern to WWII
George Kelly        193        112       19.28         26       Early Modern to WWII
Harmon Killebrew    371        147       24.68         38       Integration
Ted Kluszewski      203        125       19.14         33       Integration
Ed Konetchy         287        118       22.30         27       Early Modern to WWII
Joe Kuhel           243         85       18.71         26       Early Modern to WWII
Don Mattingly       263        145       23.87         34       Post Integration
Lee May             215        108       16.82         26       Post Integration
John Mayberry       199        120       19.90         33       Post Integration
Frank McCormick     202        112       21.33         29       Early Modern to WWII
Willie McCovey      408        164       25.54         39       Integration
Stuffy McInnis      227        102       17.28         26       Early Modern to WWII
Johnny Mize*        338        154       29.06         34       Early Modern to WWII

* Missed playing time due to WWII

Code:

Player          Career WS   Peak WS   WS per 162  Top Season       Era
Eddie Murray        437        142       23.40         33       Post Integration
Tony Perez          349        144       20.36         33       Post Integration
Boog Powell         282        116       22.37         31       Integration
George Scott        216        106       17.20         24       Post Integration
Roy Sievers         231        115       19.83         32       Integration
George Sisler       292        135       23.02         33       Early Modern to WWII
Fred Tenney         249         99       20.23         25       Early Modern to WWII
Bill Terry          278        142       26.17         32       Early Modern to WWII
Hal Trosky*         195        120       23.45         28       Early Modern to WWII
Mickey Vernon*      296        112       19.91         33       Integration
Bob Watson          236        123       20.87         31       Post Integration
Bill White          209        121       20.24         27       Integration
Rudy York           214        105       21.63         27       Early Modern to WWII

* Missed playing time due to WWII

swampdragon · 01-31-2006, 07:20 PM

I just want to add to Eck's post by putting in plugs for Dan Brouthers and Roger Connor. Brouthers and Connor were the best position players of the 1880s. Anson wins the longevity award of the 3, but Brouthers and Connor were better players while they were all active.

Win Shares

1881 Anson 22, Brouthers 20, Connor 19
1882 Brouthers 20, Connor 19, Anson 18
1883 Brouthers 24, Connor 19, Anson 15
1884 Connor 23, Brouthers 22, Anson 19
1885 Connor 30, Brouthers 26, Anson 23
1886 Connor 36, Brouthers 31, Anson 30
1887 Brouthers 26, Connor 21, Anson 19
1888 Connor 32, Anson 29, Brouthers 26
1889 Brouthers 28, Connor 26, Anson 21

Anson finished third in seven of the nine years of the 1880s when all three were playing regularly.

1890 Connor 25, Anson 24, Brouthers 19
1891 Brouthers 29, Connor 23, Anson 21
1892 Brouthers 34, Connor 24, Anson 21

All three players started to decline relative to the league when the pitching mound was moved back in 1893, and they were all through by 1897. Anson has the biggest reputation, but I don't believe he was the best player of the three.

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 07:28 PM

Cannot believe Jake Beckley did not get nominated.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 01-31-2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Cannot believe Jake Beckley did not get nominated.

Yeah, Beckley is better than at least 50% of the people listed in these threads.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 01-31-2006, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Start had a lengthy and brilliant career before the National Association got underway. He is a HOF'er through and through.

Hey, what do you want? At least I voted for Dick Allen for you.

dodgecharger1968 · 01-31-2006, 09:59 PM

Wow, for all his reputation, Frank Chance didn't really do much aside from taking out my Tiges in '06.

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgecharger1968

Wow, for all his reputation, Frank Chance didn't really do much aside from taking out my Tiges in '06.

Well, aside from the great hitting and excellent defense.

dodgecharger1968 · 01-31-2006, 10:40 PM

Well, he did steal a ton of bases. Sure seems like his average and his doubles are lagging for his era, and he didn't have many full seasons for whatever reason. I'll believe you on the defense, though I've heard tell that it wasn't all that special.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 01-31-2006, 10:43 PM

Yeah, Chance was definitely Hall-worthy but IMO his career was just too short.

TonyJ · 01-31-2006, 10:50 PM

I'm quite honestly shocked to see that dh voted for Bill Terry. What gives?

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgecharger1968

Well, he did steal a ton of bases. Sure seems like his average and his doubles are lagging for his era, and he didn't have many full seasons for whatever reason. I'll believe you on the defense, though I've heard tell that it wasn't all that special.

His career was brief and his peak would have to be Koufax level to get a sniff. But whilst he was on the diamond, he sported a .390 OBP with good power during the deadball era. He was a hell of a player.

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyJ

I'm quite honestly shocked to see that dh voted for Bill Terry. What gives?

Great hitter. Even better with the glove.

TonyJ · 01-31-2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Great hitter. Even better with the glove.

Over ten seasons and some change. Some of which were just ok. His peak isn't high enough to justify selecting him on that basis alone and his career wasn't long enough to put him in on that basis. Very good player, not a Hall of Famer.

darkhorse · 01-31-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyJ

Over ten seasons and some change. Some of which were just ok. His peak isn't high enough to justify selecting him on that basis alone and his career wasn't long enough to put him in on that basis. Very good player, not a Hall of Famer.

Someone who might be the best glove ever at his position, and is also a great hitter, doesn't belong in the very good category. If you think his career is short in quantity, fine, but the quality of Terry's play was superb.

On a side note, Terry led the Giants to a World Series victory in his second season as player-manager.

Edit: Forgot to mention the 9 consecutive seasons with an EQA over .300.

CONN CHRIS · 02-01-2006, 06:21 AM

This particular grouping gives us a bright-line idiot test with Foxx and Gehrig.

We all passed so far, too bad the same can't be said of the BB Writers Association.

01-31-2006, 05:30 PM	#1
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	OOTP-TS Baseball Hall Of Fame - First Basemen, poll 1 Please vote for the candidates which you feel deserve to be in the OOTP-TS Baseball Hall Of Fame. I ask that you give consideration to each candidate, I have linked references for easy access. A player requires 75% of the TS vote to be inducted. If you do not see any worthy candidates in this poll, please select the "None" option at the bottom so that your vote is counted in the percentages. I will discount any votes made by aliases, so please do not use them. Follow this link to see who will be candidates in upcoming polls as well as for links to other open polls: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=110326 Here are your candidates: Cap Anson (1871-1897 http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/ansonca01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/ansonca01.shtml Joe Start (1871-1886) http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/startjo01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/startjo01.shtml Dan Brouthers (1879-1904) http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/broutda01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/broutda01.shtml Roger Connor (1880-1897) http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/connoro01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/connoro01.shtml Frank Chance (1898-1914) http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chancfr01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/chancfr01.shtml George Sisler (1915-1930) http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sislege01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sislege01.shtml Lou Gehrig (1923-1939) http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gehrilo01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/gehrilo01.shtml Mule Suttles (1923-1944) http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/.../mule_suttles/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_Suttles Bill Terry (1923-1936) http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/terrybi01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/terrybi01.shtml Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945) http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/foxxji01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/foxxji01.shtml Hank Greenberg (1930-1947) http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greenha01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/greenha01.shtml Dolph Camilli (1933-1945) http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/camildo01.shtml http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/camildo01.shtml __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

01-31-2006, 06:37 PM	#2
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	I wonder if we'll collectively be smart enough to induct all three of the unquestionably qualified 19th century first basemen.* * - darkhorse: I know Start's got a pretty good argument as well, but I think there are only three that are HoF players beyond the shadow of a doubt. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

01-31-2006, 07:28 PM	#8
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Cannot believe Jake Beckley did not get nominated. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

01-31-2006, 10:43 PM	#14
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	Yeah, Chance was definitely Hall-worthy but IMO his career was just too short. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

01-31-2006, 10:50 PM	#15
TonyJ Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Gassin' Kurds Posts: 2,019	I'm quite honestly shocked to see that dh voted for Bill Terry. What gives? __________________ My Podcasts: Talk Democratic Dysfunction Name Two Bands with Andy and Andy

View Poll Results: Who belongs in the OOTP-TS Baseball HOF?
Cap Anson	53	85.48%
Joe Start	6	9.68%
Dan Brouthers	33	53.23%
Roger Connor	30	48.39%
Frank Chance	6	9.68%
George Sisler	28	45.16%
Lou Gehrig	62	100.00%
Mule Suttles	17	27.42%
Bill Terry	20	32.26%
Jimmie Foxx	61	98.39%
Hank Greenberg	50	80.65%
Dolph Camilli	1	1.61%
-None-	0	0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

01-31-2006, 07:06 PM	#5
tim_uwrf Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Field of Dreams Posts: 1,998	I voted for everyone except Camilli. I thought they all deserved getting in.

01-31-2006, 07:20 PM	#7
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,506	I just want to add to Eck's post by putting in plugs for Dan Brouthers and Roger Connor. Brouthers and Connor were the best position players of the 1880s. Anson wins the longevity award of the 3, but Brouthers and Connor were better players while they were all active. Win Shares 1881 Anson 22, Brouthers 20, Connor 19 1882 Brouthers 20, Connor 19, Anson 18 1883 Brouthers 24, Connor 19, Anson 15 1884 Connor 23, Brouthers 22, Anson 19 1885 Connor 30, Brouthers 26, Anson 23 1886 Connor 36, Brouthers 31, Anson 30 1887 Brouthers 26, Connor 21, Anson 19 1888 Connor 32, Anson 29, Brouthers 26 1889 Brouthers 28, Connor 26, Anson 21 Anson finished third in seven of the nine years of the 1880s when all three were playing regularly. 1890 Connor 25, Anson 24, Brouthers 19 1891 Brouthers 29, Connor 23, Anson 21 1892 Brouthers 34, Connor 24, Anson 21 All three players started to decline relative to the league when the pitching mound was moved back in 1893, and they were all through by 1897. Anson has the biggest reputation, but I don't believe he was the best player of the three.

01-31-2006, 09:59 PM	#11
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Wow, for all his reputation, Frank Chance didn't really do much aside from taking out my Tiges in '06.

01-31-2006, 10:40 PM	#13
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Well, he did steal a ton of bases. Sure seems like his average and his doubles are lagging for his era, and he didn't have many full seasons for whatever reason. I'll believe you on the defense, though I've heard tell that it wasn't all that special.

02-01-2006, 06:21 AM	#20
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,077	This particular grouping gives us a bright-line idiot test with Foxx and Gehrig. We all passed so far, too bad the same can't be said of the BB Writers Association. __________________ Check Out My Cards!