How to win fans for a baseball team

[ctorg]

I got into a bit of the beginning of a conversation about this in another thread, but it was really off topic so I figured I'd make a new thread.

Talking about the Marlins, Sublimity said:

I've yet to see a way to successfully win fans in that market. It's kinda like LA in that they need a winner to go to the games -- at all. And even then it's not great attendance. The Marlins were a good team last year and a good team this year, with no indications of the firesale during the year. It looked like they were building a strong nucleus to compete for years. But the fans still didn't show up. It's just a terrible fanbase in the Miami area, except maybe for football.

My response:

I think the best way to build a fan base has only a little to do with winning games. You have to create a strong brand and market it well, just like with any product. Winning games can help with that, but it's far from being everything.

You need to get the people of the city hyped about the team, even if the team isn't doing well. You need to create a market for your team, not rely on one to automatically form because you opened up shop or because you win games. It's very hard to do and it takes time. The most successful team, of course, is the Yankees. But they are an anomaly. A team like the Cubs can draw a lot of fans to the park even in bad years because they are very well integrated into the city itself. Going to see a Cubs game is part of being in Chicago, it seems. Strangely, the White Sox have had a much more difficult time doing this.

So how does a team go about creating or expanding a market for itself?

[Luis_Rivera]

Here's my post from the other thread.

Originally Posted by ctorg

I think the best way to build a fan base has little to do with winning games. You have to create a strong brand and market it well, just like with any product. Winning games can help with that, but it's far from everything. It's not even the most important thing.

Well studies have shown that making the playoffs has a significant effect on revenue. I wish I had a link... but I couldn't find it last time I tried.

[Sublimity]

ctorg, I agree that winning isn't the only way to get fans into the park, and in many cases not only the best way. The Cubs and Red Sox will always draw, even in their down years, it's true. I just think as far as the South Florida/Miami market goes, that is kind of the case.

Now, keep in mind, I have no evidence whatsoever to back up any of my claims.

But, Florida has low attendance pretty constantly, until the playoffs, when they're packed. I suppose that's pretty normal. But look at a team like the Heat. Always low attendance figures. Then they got Shaq and Wade, and now they're the talk of the town. But if they keep struggling, I think the arena starts to empty.

The Dolphins probably have the best brand in Miami, but they struggle drawing crowds, too. The threat of a blackout for not selling out is constant here (and frankly, I wish it would happen), and it's usually only prevented by a corporation or the TV station buying the last tickets. The only games that generate interest are when the New York teams come to play, and that could be because they're division games... or it could be because there are a lot of residents from NY living in South Florida. I lean toward the latter.

There are a lot of problems with building a successful fan base in South Florida. There are always lots of other things to do in Miami besides go to a sporting event. If you're going to sit around outside, you might as well go to the beach. Bill Simmons argues this is the case in LA, and I believe that's certainly a bigger problem there than here. The other thing is, as alluded to in the previous paragraph, you have a lot of implants. Florida is where people retire or move to. Us natives aren't so common. They generally already have connections with other teams and keep those. It's hard to win those fans over, especially when their team is on TV that day. You also have the weather, etc., but I think those other two are bigger problems.

Anyway, building a strong brand is a great idea most of the time, and probably more important than actually winning. Of course, it helps most of all to do both, particularly early in the franchise's life. You convince the locals, then hopefully convince them to pass it on to their kids, and make it a way of life. I just don't see it working in SoFla.

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by ctorg

A team like the Cubs can draw a lot of fans to the park even in bad years because they are very well integrated into the city itself. Going to see a Cubs game is part of being in Chicago, it seems. Strangely, the White Sox have had a much more difficult time doing this.

So how does a team go about creating or expanding a market for itself?

It helps if your parent corporation is one of the largest media companies (Tribune Corporation) in the U.S.

It also helps if your ballpark's neighborhood is considered "desirable". I would argue that, for many tourists, the lure of Wrigley Field and Wrigleyville looms much larger than the lure of the on-field product. Wrigley serves as a model for a "neighborhood" park, with plenty of watering holes, restaurants, clubs, etc., surrounding the stadium. It also helps that the Cubs play predominantly afternoon games - go the game, get a good buzz going, and then you can continue drinking for another 7 hours or so until the neighborhood bars close.

On the south side, the perception is that you get to the park at around 7, watch the game, and then get back in your car and drive home. No time to go out (and no place to easily go to) after the game is over.

[ibdb]

I'm trying to decide how the LA Dodgers fit into all this. Clearly they have a loyal group of devoted fans. A few years ago I had several opportunities to attend some games courtesy of some great corporate seats. It was amazing to me to see such a late arriving/early departing group of fans. I don't remember exactly who they were playing, but I remember them being quality opponents, and the games were close. Still, people were rolling in late 3rd, early 4th inning, and packing up as soon as the 7th started. Why bother?

Sure they have years of history on their side -- but an attendance pattern like that most other places would have the owners shopping for greener pastures.

About the same time I went to a few Padre games at the 'Murph. Those were the only times I'd ever seen people tailgating for baseball. LA and San Diego both have more than their share of other options competing for your entertainment dollar -- so that wasn't the difference. I just couldn't see the bleeding Dodger blue thing, especially in comparison to the image of a much more laid back San Diego fan.

I guess I'm dismissing history too much. But how do you build a history? If you don't draw the fans, you don't build a history. If you don't build a history, you don't draw the fans.

Seattle, despite a horrible last couple of years, still continues to be a pretty good draw. A good part of it is the brand they've developed since '95 and with the addition of Safeco Field. Brand is only going to carry them so far, though, if they can't get things turned around on the field.

[Sublimity]

Originally Posted by ibdb

but an attendance pattern like that most other places would have the owners shopping for greener pastures.

Only thing I can say about that is as long as they bought the tickets (and the merchandise) I don't think the owners would care. You don't pay less to only see the middle 3 or 4 innings. But yeah, LA fans have long had that stigma attached to them. The one thing that seemed to help was Gagne.

[Y0DA55]

I think a big problem with baseball in Miami, is that the stadium isn't readily accessible. In Chicago or New York the stadium is easy to get to. In Miami, it isn't. I've only been to one game down there, but you HAD to pay for parking as you can't just walk to the stadium. I don't know how public transportation is down there or if they are able to get people to the games who don't have cars, but from my experience, whatever that stadium is now called is WAY out of the way for people. If you make going to the game a hassle, it will absolutely turn off fans.

I don't know how attendance is here in Seattle for Mariners games, but if they have a moderately good team, the stadium easily fills up. It's within walking distance (or a really short bus ride) from downtown. I don't think Pro Player Stadium (if that's the name now) has that sort of proximity to Miami. Yankee Stadium and Wrigley Field are all right there. I think this plays a HUGE part in it (along with the branding that ctorg mentioned).

[Sublimity]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

I think a big problem with baseball in Miami, is that the stadium isn't readily accessible. In Chicago or New York the stadium is easy to get to. In Miami, it isn't. I've only been to one game down there, but you HAD to pay for parking as you can't just walk to the stadium. I don't know how public transportation is down there or if they are able to get people to the games who don't have cars, but from my experience, whatever that stadium is now called is WAY out of the way for people. If you make going to the game a hassle, it will absolutely turn off fans.

I don't know how attendance is here in Seattle for Mariners games, but if they have a moderately good team, the stadium easily fills up. It's within walking distance (or a really short bus ride) from downtown. I don't think Pro Player Stadium (if that's the name now) has that sort of proximity to Miami. Yankee Stadium and Wrigley Field are all right there. I think this plays a HUGE part in it (along with the branding that ctorg mentioned).

That's a good point. The stadium is a pain in the ass to get to. And public transportation in Florida is absolutely abysmal (which I can't understand, with all the old people down here -- shouldn't we work harder to get them off the roads??). That probably does play into it a lot.

[QuestGAV]

I think there's a big difference between building a fan base and putting butts in the seats/having people click their TV on. Winning in the short term (or the expectancy of it) will put people in the seats and have them watching games for that season in almost any market. This behavior is very susceptible to extinction though and likely dies off as soon as the expectancy of winning goes away.

Building a fan base is a much tougher and longer process, but the fans who identify with a team brand rather than an incarnation of the team in a specific year are clearly going to be more likely to continue going to and watching games through more difficult times. There's no guaranteed way to do this, although I think that having something that makes your club unique is important. Cubs fans have the ivy in Wrigley as well as the neighborhood aspect. Red Sox fans have the unique setup of Fenway as well as their unique history. The Yankees have the mystique of Babe Ruth as well as being in the limelight of the Big Apple. I don't think you can identify those uniting factors in the teams who have struggled to build a consistent fan base like the White Sox, Mets, or even the Braves.

I think where the Marlins failed is that after winning the World Series their firesale provided negative reinforcement to fans who had fallen in love with the team. They took away the expectancy that following them in one winning season would lead to a positive experience the next season. Sure enough, when the team was looking to be competitive again they had a much more difficult time convincing the fans that it was worth becoming permanent fixtures in the fanbase again.

[Y0DA55]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

If you make going to the game a hassle, it will absolutely turn off fans.

To add to my point:

Especially with baseball where there isn't a whole lot of tailgating. PPS is defanitely a football stadium... tailgating and all.

[Sublimity]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

To add to my point:

Especially with baseball where there isn't a whole lot of tailgating. PPS is defanitely a football stadium... tailgating and all.

Actually, the name is now Dolphins Stadium, which I find very humorous since the Marlins play there also. Not only do they play in the shadow of the Dolphins in terms of the market, but they also have to play in their stadium -- with it named after them! I'd feel unwanted, too.

[abailey3313]

The Orioles may stink, but Camden Yards will always be able to draw an adequate amount of fans because of the quality of the stadium. It's one of the best places to take in a game, and that type of atmosphere will always have appeal.

[theasfl]

Originally Posted by Sublimity

ctorg, I agree that winning isn't the only way to get fans into the park, and in many cases not only the best way. The Cubs and Red Sox will always draw, even in their down years, it's true. I just think as far as the South Florida/Miami market goes, that is kind of the case.

Now, keep in mind, I have no evidence whatsoever to back up any of my claims.

But, Florida has low attendance pretty constantly, until the playoffs, when they're packed. I suppose that's pretty normal. But look at a team like the Heat. Always low attendance figures. Then they got Shaq and Wade, and now they're the talk of the town. But if they keep struggling, I think the arena starts to empty.

The Dolphins probably have the best brand in Miami, but they struggle drawing crowds, too. The threat of a blackout for not selling out is constant here (and frankly, I wish it would happen), and it's usually only prevented by a corporation or the TV station buying the last tickets. The only games that generate interest are when the New York teams come to play, and that could be because they're division games... or it could be because there are a lot of residents from NY living in South Florida. I lean toward the latter.

There are a lot of problems with building a successful fan base in South Florida. There are always lots of other things to do in Miami besides go to a sporting event. If you're going to sit around outside, you might as well go to the beach. Bill Simmons argues this is the case in LA, and I believe that's certainly a bigger problem there than here. The other thing is, as alluded to in the previous paragraph, you have a lot of implants. Florida is where people retire or move to. Us natives aren't so common. They generally already have connections with other teams and keep those. It's hard to win those fans over, especially when their team is on TV that day. You also have the weather, etc., but I think those other two are bigger problems.

Anyway, building a strong brand is a great idea most of the time, and probably more important than actually winning. Of course, it helps most of all to do both, particularly early in the franchise's life. You convince the locals, then hopefully convince them to pass it on to their kids, and make it a way of life. I just don't see it working in SoFla.

strong points which I would pretty much sum up the problems down here, where exactly are you from sublimity?



As has been said, the thing that completely screwed the Marlins down here was the first firesale. The fan base had been built and then it was completely outcast and destroyed. Those fans are still having a hard time going back consistantly. It ruined any tradition that could have been built.

The stadium location isn't necessarily bad for everyone; but the hispanic population which is passionate for baseball will have a hard time getting to the stadium from Miami. The more rich areas in Palm Beach will have a hard time driving down on a work day, which cuts season ticket revenue. North Miami/Dade and most of Broward are the only people who usually won't have a hard time getting to the stadium on a regular day, but, as has been said, there is absolutely no public transportation down here.

[JDOldSchool]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

In Chicago or New York the stadium is easy to get to . . . Yankee Stadium and Wrigley Field are all right there.

Actually, Wrigley Field is a giant pain in the ass when it comes to actually getting to the park. The public transportation to the park is fine, but if you're driving it's a total bitch. It's not all that close to any highway and there's almost no parking (unless you wanna pay $35 or more). People aren't going to Wrigley because it's easy.

The Cubs phenomenon has everything to do with WGN. It's incredible how many people are Cubs games are busloads of dopes from Iowa who don't have the first clue about baseball but the Cubs are all they know because of WGN so they make the trip. There's also the myth about the wonderful Wrigey Field (which is really a colossal dump in every possible way: horrible sight lines, terrible food, it smells, it's literally falling apart, and if you have to pee you're treated like a damn animal). Since it's old, people feel they must experience (not watch) a game there and that's a draw.

The perfect example of the Cubs thing is in the letter they sent to season ticket holders. In it, they cited the Jimmy Buffet concert as one of the best moments of this past season. They don't sell baseball, they sell a park. It's an incredible marketing technique that has worked for two decades because there are lots and lots of really dumb people. Not the real Cubs fans. They're the ones pissed off by the stupidity. I'm talking about the million lemmings that file through the gate every year.

[rangers85]

Originally Posted by abailey3313

The Orioles may stink, but Camden Yards will always be able to draw an adequate amount of fans because of the quality of the stadium. It's one of the best places to take in a game, and that type of atmosphere will always have appeal.

Same way with The Ballpark in Arlington. Even in the down years you can still count on at least 20-25000 there any given night during the week and about 30-35000 on the weekends, at least partially due to the stadium itself. During the good years of the late 90s, that would rise to probably about 30-35000 during the week and 45000+ on the weekends.

And that's also with the ballpark not being the easiest of places to get to. No easy public transportation from Dallas or Fort Worth to get there (Though I've heard rumors they're looking to extend the rail system there once the Cowboys Stadium goes in). You basically have to drive on I-30 from Dallas or Fort Worth to get there which is about 15 minutes from Fort Worth and 30 from Dallas.

So Arlington is an example of a place that even though public transportation sucks, it's still possible to get a fan base there.

[Skipaway]

What they need is to build nursing homes connected to the ball park and tie the season tickets to the nursing home service package!

[Sublimity]

Originally Posted by theasfl

strong points which I would pretty much sum up the problems down here, where exactly are you from sublimity?

Raised in Jupiter (north Palm Beach County) now in Stuart in Martin County. But since every team is ignored except for the Miami teams, it's pretty much the home team.

Oh yeah, and the fan base for the Hurricanes sucks, too.