Relief Pitching Broken Agian in 6.5b

Aordolin · 10-23-2005, 01:11 AM

Just want to see an offical answer on this if its going to be addressed before the patch goes final or If im going to have to go back to play 6.12 agian. Same problem as was reported in earlier patches of ver 6 with setup men and even middle relief getting too many saves. It was fixed and working fine. I dont remember when I started noticing this and if it was the last beta release og 6.5b. When I verify it ill post, hopefully it just showed up in the last patch.

Derek4jc · 10-23-2005, 03:27 AM

it started in 6.5, because I've used both 6.5 and 6.5a and both have this problem, which frustrated me in my online league. The AL Save leader was 29.

mars001 · 10-23-2005, 09:49 AM

I'm seeing this in the 6.5b patch, but didn't notice it in 6.5.

RchW · 10-23-2005, 10:32 AM

Check your Era settings and check your league complete game totals. I get anywhere from 36 to 45 saves in a year from the top closers with pitcher endurance set to normal and use relievers set to often. With this setting, I get very high complete game numbers compared to current MLB. For example in the NL my 2004 CG = 237 real NL 2004 CG =71, so 237-71=166/16teams=10.4. If you assume that 80% of CG are wins then there are 8 to 9 saves/team not made because of complete games.

I like CG's so I'm happy with the 36 to 45 totals I'm getting.

Derek4jc · 10-23-2005, 07:00 PM

Well, the thing is, the reason the save numbers are so down, is because they are so heavily spread out. For example with my team from my online league...

Keith Foulke (the closer all year): 21
Scott Linebrink (setup role): 18
Trevor Hoffman (Setup role): 13
Randy Choate (middle relief roll): 1

the problem isn't that the save numbers for the league leaders are low because of a lack of saves, but rather they are down because the AI isn't always using the fully rested closer in all save situations.

ibdb · 10-25-2005, 12:53 PM

This isn't new to 6.5b. I use 6.5a. I manage my roster, but let the computer simulate each game. I use skydogs (I think) settings. My team was on its way to a 90+ win season.

My fully rested, All-Star Closer for two of the three previous years, just went 6 weeks without even getting an appearance in the game. Setup men and middle relievers got save opportunities, converting some, blowing others, but my Closer might has well not have existed.

RchW · 10-25-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibdb

This isn't new to 6.5b. I use 6.5a. I manage my roster, but let the computer simulate each game. I use skydogs (I think) settings. My team was on its way to a 90+ win season.

My fully rested, All-Star Closer for two of the three previous years, just went 6 weeks without even getting an appearance in the game. Setup men and middle relievers got save opportunities, converting some, blowing others, but my Closer might has well not have existed.

That is bizarre. There seems to be no consistency. My league has a 35 year history of which 15 years I have had a team and typically closers get 33 to 40 saves and the teams get 40 to 50 saves. I use Sky dog's settings too. I do believe that the AI is too reactive and may be changing the closer from game to game on the computer controlled teams.

Have you tried reducing starting pitcher endurance on the era settings? The other thing that has been done is to put the closer in as the second set up guy as well as the closer.

Another question, is it possible that game scores in your league cause the AI to think that it is not a save situation and therefore not use the closer?
Perhaps the logic to determine the closer use is flawed. Edit dohhh! obvious

Aordolin · 10-25-2005, 10:00 PM

Yep checked it it started with 6.5. Other posters are right there is nothing wrong with the save totals for the league but the logic (or lack thereof) is ******ed. And its not a settings problem, nothing changed in my league and went from closers with 35-40 saves a year down to 15-25 with some setupmen being even higher with 20+. Had some teams were the setup man had more saves than the closer. There is no reason for it and frankly no excuse. Especially considering we just went through this earlier this year before the release of 6.12. I hope it doesnt take 6 months to resolve this problem too. The bullpen roles are pretty meaningless anyway but come on if you set a person up to be closer he should be closing not whoever the stupid AI deciedes it would like to stick int he game. Fix it.

RchW · 10-25-2005, 10:36 PM

But see my post above. My league was/is 6.5a/b and I've had no problems in 35 sim years. So it's not a problem across all leagues.

Aordolin · 10-26-2005, 08:22 AM

You have simmed 35 years with 6.5b?

There is nothing wrong with my settings, its a logic problem in the game like I said. I get plenty of CG like you do, more than current baseball by about the same numbers as you. I am expecting closers on good teams to get 30-40 saves. Thats been my average over the 23 year history of my solo league. Saves in general for each team is about 40-50. Now I can live with those numbers so my league settings are right. But look at Derek4jc's post those totals are exactly like what I am getting on every team.

I have tried all the versions, 6.5, 6.5a, 6.5b and get the same results. I have tried moving the closer into the setup roles, while the numbers get a little better, there are still too many saves going to the scrubs in the middle of the bullpen. I broke this down before when we had this problem before so you can probably search it if you want because Im not posting it all agian. But basically I looked at the closer use in MLB over the last 5 years and excluding players who were injured/traded/or removed for ineffectiveness, a teams closer got ATLEAST 90% of a teams saves. That means if there was a reliever put in to get a save it was the closer. In most cases that number was more like 95%. The best OOTP has done from my calculations is around 80%. But Ill take that over the 40-50% I am getting currently.

So I dont know what your doing but you seem to be the only one who has posted that you dont have a problem.

RchW · 10-27-2005, 10:32 PM

Check out the attached comparison from my fictional league. I used the NL only because I have extra teams in the fictional AL

Fictional league 78.7% of closers got the save. Real life 85.9%

I agree that the closer use is less in OOTP but not as low as expected. These results are realistic and if you consider even half of the CG differential (133) as saves, there would be another 67 saves in the fictional league

Two fictional teams had split closers ie two in the role (see bold). Interestingly four real teams had this occur and two of that four had three closers with similar totals (Atl and Ari). At least the game is keeping the closer role fairly exclusive.

I think changing era settings for pitcher endurance from normal to fair or weak may increase the 79% closer use in the fictional league. I'm going to make that change and I'll report when I have data.

Aordolin, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm just pointing out that there are setups that give decent realistic closer stats. I'm perhaps not as concerned with the numbers as you because I've made other changes, ie better pitcher endurance, more power and speed.

As to your other question, this league was started on 6.5a and went to 6.5b as soon as it came out, probably 12 years of sims on 6.5b

Aordolin · 11-01-2005, 05:32 PM

Thought Id update. Moving my starters edurance down to fair did help alot, however setup men are still getting about 7-10 saves a piece. so still looking at about 20 or so saves not going to closer. I guess I can work around it by putting the closer in one of the setup man slots but the problem does exist. Putting players in multiple slots is not a fix. so it needs to be addressed by Markus.

mrbill · 11-03-2005, 01:04 PM

I'll tack on a not that useful, but really annoying situation, this from even 6.12 in my online league, just happened yesterday.

Bot 9th, playoff game, up 1-0, but facing elimination. Starter hits 1st guy up, gets the hook... 5* all-star closer with repeated sub 2 ERA seasons... sits. As the 4.8 ERA lefty setup man comes in to face a righty hitter.

One pitch, HR, my season is over.

I also understand the plight of long-term effects of the closer not getting the save, but in this situation, not even Grady Little would have screwed that call to the bullpen up.

Aordolin · 11-03-2005, 07:24 PM

you've been dan micili'd!

Derek4jc · 11-19-2005, 08:47 PM

In my online league to start this season, we've played through the first month and in the American league The Toronto Bluejays have their closer and their setup man each leading the league in saves with 5. They are a 14 win team.

On the other hand, my team has my closer with 0 saves and only 2 appearences. My setup men have 3 saves and 1 save respectively. Kind of annoying, because in my mind, the reason you put that guy in the closer role is so he'll be used in those situations.

LeiterFanatic · 11-22-2005, 06:55 AM

I am having similar problems with the new 6.5b beta. I have gone back to 6.12

Derek4jc · 11-29-2005, 10:28 PM

Just wondering, has anyone noticed if this got fixed in 6.51?

Aordolin · 11-30-2005, 08:59 AM

Not listed as a fix so I guess we can assume it was ignored. Well we got Cato fixed, hell of alot of good it does if the game is broken and produces stupid statistical numbers you wouldnt want to import into Cato anyway.

sporr · 11-30-2005, 06:29 PM

From other threads, it seems that this is a somewhat isolated issue. Obviously it is an important one, but we have many users reporting that saves are right where they should be. This makes tracking down where the problem lies very difficult I would imagine.

Aordolin · 11-30-2005, 10:54 PM

some of those people have admitted to putting the closer in both setup roles oe atleast one to get those results though. I dont consider that an acceptable fix. the facts are bullpen AI is garbage and next to worthless. The best pitchers do not necessarily get the most usage unless you use work arounds like putting pitchers in multiple positions on the charts which can be hit and miss anyway. Besides the fact then you end up with relievers with 120+ innings and others with almost nothing in a full season. Even in 6.12 which had the best results for save totals they were still not in line with real baseball numbers.

I went through this a while ago but basically simming 5 seasons in found that barring injuries closers were gettig in the 80-85% range. Where in major league baseball those totals are 90% min. yeah its close and I can live with it. My results are with 6.5 were more like 65% tops, after taking some suggestions from forums I managed to get it up to 75-80% but that is still too low. I think this is a problem especially in online leagues were you really dont have the control to just change settings. Think of it this way: while 80% maybe sounds alright, consider that in 162 season your probably going to end up with about 60 save chances on average. at 80% your looking at about 12 of those changes going to someone who is not being paid so to speak to do that job. The closer does not pitch every day, that is his job to get the tough outs. Unless the player is tired, injured, then he should be getting 100% of those chances.

Only thing that hacks me off about this the lack of offical aknowledgement of this problem. Alot more people have reported this issue than have said it doesnt exist. And I think this is a hell of alot more important of an issue than a 3rd party program not working with the game as well anymore. Yet there was not even a mention from Markus or another offical source about it. This issue was brought up 5 months ago, plenty of time to get this resolved before now. How about trying to interact with those of us with the problem to find out what WE are doing. I gave alot of information on what my settings were it should have been easy to replicate them. At least with some dialogue maybe we could have found a feasible work around. At the very least I would have expected some mention, hey we looked into it but couldnt replicate the problem, heres some suggestions to get the results you want or tough go back to 6.12.

10-23-2005, 01:11 AM	#1
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Relief Pitching Broken Agian in 6.5b Just want to see an offical answer on this if its going to be addressed before the patch goes final or If im going to have to go back to play 6.12 agian. Same problem as was reported in earlier patches of ver 6 with setup men and even middle relief getting too many saves. It was fixed and working fine. I dont remember when I started noticing this and if it was the last beta release og 6.5b. When I verify it ill post, hopefully it just showed up in the last patch.

10-23-2005, 10:32 AM	#4
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Check your Era settings and check your league complete game totals. I get anywhere from 36 to 45 saves in a year from the top closers with pitcher endurance set to normal and use relievers set to often. With this setting, I get very high complete game numbers compared to current MLB. For example in the NL my 2004 CG = 237 real NL 2004 CG =71, so 237-71=166/16teams=10.4. If you assume that 80% of CG are wins then there are 8 to 9 saves/team not made because of complete games. I like CG's so I'm happy with the 36 to 45 totals I'm getting. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

10-25-2005, 10:36 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	But see my post above. My league was/is 6.5a/b and I've had no problems in 35 sim years. So it's not a problem across all leagues. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

10-27-2005, 10:32 PM	#11
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Check out the attached comparison from my fictional league. I used the NL only because I have extra teams in the fictional AL Fictional league 78.7% of closers got the save. Real life 85.9% I agree that the closer use is less in OOTP but not as low as expected. These results are realistic and if you consider even half of the CG differential (133) as saves, there would be another 67 saves in the fictional league Two fictional teams had split closers ie two in the role (see bold). Interestingly four real teams had this occur and two of that four had three closers with similar totals (Atl and Ari). At least the game is keeping the closer role fairly exclusive. I think changing era settings for pitcher endurance from normal to fair or weak may increase the 79% closer use in the fictional league. I'm going to make that change and I'll report when I have data. Aordolin, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm just pointing out that there are setups that give decent realistic closer stats. I'm perhaps not as concerned with the numbers as you because I've made other changes, ie better pitcher endurance, more power and speed. As to your other question, this league was started on 6.5a and went to 6.5b as soon as it came out, probably 12 years of sims on 6.5b __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit Last edited by RchW; 05-06-2007 at 02:47 PM.

11-03-2005, 01:04 PM	#13
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	I'll tack on a not that useful, but really annoying situation, this from even 6.12 in my online league, just happened yesterday. Bot 9th, playoff game, up 1-0, but facing elimination. Starter hits 1st guy up, gets the hook... 5* all-star closer with repeated sub 2 ERA seasons... sits. As the 4.8 ERA lefty setup man comes in to face a righty hitter. One pitch, HR, my season is over. I also understand the plight of long-term effects of the closer not getting the save, but in this situation, not even Grady Little would have screwed that call to the bullpen up. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

10-23-2005, 03:27 AM	#2
Derek4jc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Attleboro, MA Posts: 238	it started in 6.5, because I've used both 6.5 and 6.5a and both have this problem, which frustrated me in my online league. The AL Save leader was 29.

10-23-2005, 09:49 AM	#3
mars001 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 940	I'm seeing this in the 6.5b patch, but didn't notice it in 6.5.

10-23-2005, 07:00 PM	#5
Derek4jc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Attleboro, MA Posts: 238	Well, the thing is, the reason the save numbers are so down, is because they are so heavily spread out. For example with my team from my online league... Keith Foulke (the closer all year): 21 Scott Linebrink (setup role): 18 Trevor Hoffman (Setup role): 13 Randy Choate (middle relief roll): 1 the problem isn't that the save numbers for the league leaders are low because of a lack of saves, but rather they are down because the AI isn't always using the fully rested closer in all save situations.

10-25-2005, 12:53 PM	#6
ibdb Minors (Double A) Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 103	This isn't new to 6.5b. I use 6.5a. I manage my roster, but let the computer simulate each game. I use skydogs (I think) settings. My team was on its way to a 90+ win season. My fully rested, All-Star Closer for two of the three previous years, just went 6 weeks without even getting an appearance in the game. Setup men and middle relievers got save opportunities, converting some, blowing others, but my Closer might has well not have existed.

10-25-2005, 10:00 PM	#8
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Yep checked it it started with 6.5. Other posters are right there is nothing wrong with the save totals for the league but the logic (or lack thereof) is ******ed. And its not a settings problem, nothing changed in my league and went from closers with 35-40 saves a year down to 15-25 with some setupmen being even higher with 20+. Had some teams were the setup man had more saves than the closer. There is no reason for it and frankly no excuse. Especially considering we just went through this earlier this year before the release of 6.12. I hope it doesnt take 6 months to resolve this problem too. The bullpen roles are pretty meaningless anyway but come on if you set a person up to be closer he should be closing not whoever the stupid AI deciedes it would like to stick int he game. Fix it.

10-26-2005, 08:22 AM	#10
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	You have simmed 35 years with 6.5b? There is nothing wrong with my settings, its a logic problem in the game like I said. I get plenty of CG like you do, more than current baseball by about the same numbers as you. I am expecting closers on good teams to get 30-40 saves. Thats been my average over the 23 year history of my solo league. Saves in general for each team is about 40-50. Now I can live with those numbers so my league settings are right. But look at Derek4jc's post those totals are exactly like what I am getting on every team. I have tried all the versions, 6.5, 6.5a, 6.5b and get the same results. I have tried moving the closer into the setup roles, while the numbers get a little better, there are still too many saves going to the scrubs in the middle of the bullpen. I broke this down before when we had this problem before so you can probably search it if you want because Im not posting it all agian. But basically I looked at the closer use in MLB over the last 5 years and excluding players who were injured/traded/or removed for ineffectiveness, a teams closer got ATLEAST 90% of a teams saves. That means if there was a reliever put in to get a save it was the closer. In most cases that number was more like 95%. The best OOTP has done from my calculations is around 80%. But Ill take that over the 40-50% I am getting currently. So I dont know what your doing but you seem to be the only one who has posted that you dont have a problem.

11-01-2005, 05:32 PM	#12
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Thought Id update. Moving my starters edurance down to fair did help alot, however setup men are still getting about 7-10 saves a piece. so still looking at about 20 or so saves not going to closer. I guess I can work around it by putting the closer in one of the setup man slots but the problem does exist. Putting players in multiple slots is not a fix. so it needs to be addressed by Markus.

11-03-2005, 07:24 PM	#14
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	you've been dan micili'd!

11-19-2005, 08:47 PM	#15
Derek4jc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Attleboro, MA Posts: 238	In my online league to start this season, we've played through the first month and in the American league The Toronto Bluejays have their closer and their setup man each leading the league in saves with 5. They are a 14 win team. On the other hand, my team has my closer with 0 saves and only 2 appearences. My setup men have 3 saves and 1 save respectively. Kind of annoying, because in my mind, the reason you put that guy in the closer role is so he'll be used in those situations.

11-22-2005, 06:55 AM	#16
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,358	I am having similar problems with the new 6.5b beta. I have gone back to 6.12

11-29-2005, 10:28 PM	#17
Derek4jc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Attleboro, MA Posts: 238	Just wondering, has anyone noticed if this got fixed in 6.51?

11-30-2005, 08:59 AM	#18
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Not listed as a fix so I guess we can assume it was ignored. Well we got Cato fixed, hell of alot of good it does if the game is broken and produces stupid statistical numbers you wouldnt want to import into Cato anyway.

11-30-2005, 06:29 PM	#19
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	From other threads, it seems that this is a somewhat isolated issue. Obviously it is an important one, but we have many users reporting that saves are right where they should be. This makes tracking down where the problem lies very difficult I would imagine.

11-30-2005, 10:54 PM	#20
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	some of those people have admitted to putting the closer in both setup roles oe atleast one to get those results though. I dont consider that an acceptable fix. the facts are bullpen AI is garbage and next to worthless. The best pitchers do not necessarily get the most usage unless you use work arounds like putting pitchers in multiple positions on the charts which can be hit and miss anyway. Besides the fact then you end up with relievers with 120+ innings and others with almost nothing in a full season. Even in 6.12 which had the best results for save totals they were still not in line with real baseball numbers. I went through this a while ago but basically simming 5 seasons in found that barring injuries closers were gettig in the 80-85% range. Where in major league baseball those totals are 90% min. yeah its close and I can live with it. My results are with 6.5 were more like 65% tops, after taking some suggestions from forums I managed to get it up to 75-80% but that is still too low. I think this is a problem especially in online leagues were you really dont have the control to just change settings. Think of it this way: while 80% maybe sounds alright, consider that in 162 season your probably going to end up with about 60 save chances on average. at 80% your looking at about 12 of those changes going to someone who is not being paid so to speak to do that job. The closer does not pitch every day, that is his job to get the tough outs. Unless the player is tired, injured, then he should be getting 100% of those chances. Only thing that hacks me off about this the lack of offical aknowledgement of this problem. Alot more people have reported this issue than have said it doesnt exist. And I think this is a hell of alot more important of an issue than a 3rd party program not working with the game as well anymore. Yet there was not even a mention from Markus or another offical source about it. This issue was brought up 5 months ago, plenty of time to get this resolved before now. How about trying to interact with those of us with the problem to find out what WE are doing. I gave alot of information on what my settings were it should have been easy to replicate them. At least with some dialogue maybe we could have found a feasible work around. At the very least I would have expected some mention, hey we looked into it but couldnt replicate the problem, heres some suggestions to get the results you want or tough go back to 6.12.