RBI rating

Plutoro · 05-23-2003, 08:03 PM

I think there should be some sort of RBI rating of some sort. The ability to drive in runs, some players just have it, period.

Guys like Giambi, AROD, Brett Boone just get the guy in somehow.

Guys like Pena, Aaron Boone (well he sorta does), Ichiro, Jeter just done have that knack.

It would make producing a lineup a real challenge, as a guy can hit .300 with 25 HR's but has a normal or Poor rating in "Producing Runs" category thus making him better suited for a 6 hitter. But a guy that hits .280, 20HR with a great rating can be in the 3 hole.

just a thought.

lynchjm24 · 05-23-2003, 08:10 PM

To quote Apu, "I'm sorry, but such a thing does not exist".

RBIs are a function of how well you hit, and how often there are players on base when you hit. There are no such things as 'clutch hitters' or players who can for whatever reason hit better when there are RISP.

Anonymous Ghost · 05-23-2003, 08:10 PM

There's a clutch hitting rating. I don't agree that anything beyond that is necessary.

BTW, empirical evidence doesn't support the notion of a clutch hitter--but that's another issue.

Helli · 05-23-2003, 09:30 PM

Shea Hillenbrand. that is all.

Plutoro · 05-23-2003, 09:52 PM

how can u say no such thing exists?

Again this is where stats vs watching baseball conflict.

A player may not hit for a higher avg with guys on base, but with a guy on 3rd and 1 out, Guys like AROD and Bonds hit the ball on the right side of the infield, guys like Pena and Wiki Gonzalez hit the ball at the 3rd baseman.

And dont pull that no clutch hitters exist, of course since you cant reflect it in a stat it doesn't exist right? There are guys that get the job done when it needs to be done (luis gonzalez, Ty Cobb, Micky Mantle, Kirk Gibson) and guys who dont (jose valentine, dmitri young).

Draft Dodger · 05-23-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Helli
Shea Hillenbrand. that is all.

that is all of what?

Draft Dodger · 05-23-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
how can u say no such thing exists?

Again this is where stats vs watching baseball conflict.

A player may not hit for a higher avg with guys on base, but with a guy on 3rd and 1 out, Guys like AROD and Bonds hit the ball on the right side of the infield, guys like Pena and Wiki Gonzalez hit the ball at the 3rd baseman.

And dont pull that no clutch hitters exist, of course since you cant reflect it in a stat it doesn't exist right? There are guys that get the job done when it needs to be done (luis gonzalez, Ty Cobb, Micky Mantle, Kirk Gibson) and guys who dont (jose valentine, dmitri young).

Guys like Arod and Bonds have career batting averages hovering in the .300 area, play everyday, and bat in the middle of the order. When you can say that about Dmitry Young, Jose Valentin and Wikki Gonzalez, please drop by again and we can continue this discussion.

Dwolfson20 · 05-23-2003, 10:12 PM

Oh god, here we go again...

Anonymous Ghost · 05-23-2003, 10:16 PM

You have yet to address how this little brainchild of a stat would differ from the clutch hitter rating that already exists.

In addition, if you honestly believe that there are intangibles beyond what can measured by statistical measures, how do propose to integrate them into a text-based game that's essentially just a representation of mathematical equations and probability functions?

Dwolfson20 · 05-23-2003, 10:23 PM

No, it's obvious that players like Bonds and A-Rod are better than Wiki Gonzalez and Jose Valentin because they can hit in the clutch, not because of their superior ability.

Gastric ReFlux · 05-23-2003, 10:25 PM

I give this thread a good rating for "Chance to get ugly."

Dwolfson20 · 05-23-2003, 10:32 PM

Plutoro = Malleus?

Helli · 05-23-2003, 10:33 PM

DD, I dont' think there should be an RBI rating, but I'm glad there's a clutch rating... (whatever that is - again I haven't played the game.)

Shea Hillenbrand is the perfect example of a guy that's not that great of a hitter, but seems to drive in runs by the bushel. Jay Buhner was also like this, the guy once had almost as many RBI's as hits in a season.... (1995).

Explain to me how players like Buhner can average an RBI per hit through an entire season (and portions of most others) while a guy like Raul Mondesi, despite playing in the middle of good lineups and posting good batting averages with plenty of the "other" stats like HR, runs, etc.... has failed to knock in 100 runs in any single season?

edit: In fact, just for S&G, and for a giggle at some truly amateur math, here's Buhner's and Mondesi's hits/rbi for their entire careers.

Buhner: 0.755 RBI per hit

Mondesi: 0.557 RBI per hit

Both were right fielders, batted in similar spots in the order throughout their careers... both were on mediocre to good teams, both had good power. Mondesi batted .276 on his career, while Buhner whiffed away to the tune of a .254 career average. Yet somehow, Buhner drove in 75 runs for every 100 hits, while Mondesi only drove in 55.

Dwolfson20 · 05-23-2003, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Helli
Explain to me how players like Buhner can average an RBI per hit through an entire season (and portions of most others) while a guy like Raul Mondesi, despite playing in the middle of good lineups and posting good batting averages with plenty of the "other" stats like HR, runs, etc.... has failed to knock in 100 runs in any single season?

Luck. Small sample size.

Mondesi's career OPS is .823, which doesn't tell me he's likely to be a 100 RBI per season type of guy.

Helli · 05-23-2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
Luck. Small sample size.

Mondesi's career OPS is .823, which doesn't tell me he's likely to be a 100 RBI per season type of guy.

I know you hadn't read my edited post when you posted this... but I'll respond to this anyway.

While I (and this is just me!) wouldn't be silly enough to infer that OBP (getting on base, for the slow) had anything to do with RBI (batting in runs), you have, so I'll compare Buhner and Mondesi's career OPS.

like you said, Mondesi posted an .822. Buhner was not rousingly better at 0.853. But of course this is a pointless comparison because OBP really doesn't have anything to do with knocking in runs.

So, if we just compare slugging percentage (which MIGHT have something to do with driving in runs) :

Buhner: .494
Mondesi: 0.491

I don't see any arguments for your case there.

The sample size is the entire career of each of these two players.

I don't know if you played baseball (I played a little, not much) but sometimes you'd come to the plate and your coach would ask you to hit the ball a certain way. Could you do it? Could you hit the ball to the right side of the infield when it was pitched on your hands? Could you be sure to hit a fly ball with a runner at third and less than 2 outs? Baseball has more to it than simply compiling statistics. The Box score really can't tell the story of the baseball game. Some players can flat out hit the ball with runners on base, and this is just a fact. Just as some can seemingly ALWAYS hit the ball to the right side of the field when they need to. (see Edgar Martinez for an example of how to make a "good" out).

Just the fact that there are good outs and bad outs ALONE should be enough to convince the more statistic-oriented baseball fans that there's more to the game than meets the stat line.

Dwolfson20 · 05-23-2003, 11:04 PM

It's not a pointless comparison. OPS is a much better way of measuring hitting ability than any of the things you mentioned. Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that the higher RBI man, Buhner, also had a higher OPS.

Also, OBP does have something to do with driving in runs. Getting on base moves runners along, correct? What if you get on to second base? If there's a runner on third when you do that, he's probably going to be driven in. Don't forget that batting average is quite a large component of OBP.

lynchjm24 · 05-23-2003, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Helli
DD, I dont' think there should be an RBI rating, but I'm glad there's a clutch rating... (whatever that is - again I haven't played the game.)

Shea Hillenbrand is the perfect example of a guy that's not that great of a hitter, but seems to drive in runs by the bushel. Jay Buhner was also like this, the guy once had almost as many RBI's as hits in a season.... (1995).

Explain to me how players like Buhner can average an RBI per hit through an entire season (and portions of most others) while a guy like Raul Mondesi, despite playing in the middle of good lineups and posting good batting averages with plenty of the "other" stats like HR, runs, etc.... has failed to knock in 100 runs in any single season?

edit: In fact, just for S&G, and for a giggle at some truly amateur math, here's Buhner's and Mondesi's hits/rbi for their entire careers.

Buhner: 0.755 RBI per hit

Mondesi: 0.557 RBI per hit

Both were right fielders, batted in similar spots in the order throughout their careers... both were on mediocre to good teams, both had good power. Mondesi batted .276 on his career, while Buhner whiffed away to the tune of a .254 career average. Yet somehow, Buhner drove in 75 runs for every 100 hits, while Mondesi only drove in 55.

Umm... doesn't it matter how many guys are on base? Just looking at RBI per hit tells you nothing. Every player in Colorado is going to have more RBI per hit then every player in Seattle. I'm not quite sure what your point is.

As for Mondesi - he spent a good portion of his career playing in a pitcher's park in Los Angeles. Buhner played in neutral/tad offensive park in Seattle. Buhner had 3 consecutive years of 40 or more HR, Mondesi's career high is 33. I don't think I need to explain that HRs would drive your RBI per hit stat up pretty quickly.

The fact that Mondesi hit for a higher average would make no difference. It would if you were measuring RBI per PA, but you are measuring RBI per hit, so their batting average would have no effect anyway.

lynchjm24 · 05-23-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro

Again this is where stats vs watching baseball conflict.

A player may not hit for a higher avg with guys on base, but with a guy on 3rd and 1 out, Guys like AROD and Bonds hit the ball on the right side of the infield, guys like Pena and Wiki Gonzalez hit the ball at the 3rd baseman.

And dont pull that no clutch hitters exist, of course since you cant reflect it in a stat it doesn't exist right? There are guys that get the job done when it needs to be done (luis gonzalez, Ty Cobb, Micky Mantle, Kirk Gibson) and guys who dont (jose valentine, dmitri young).

Yes I remember that Ty Cobb - what a clutch hitter. .He hit .263 in 3 WS (all of which Detroit lost). Only 5 extra base hits in 17 games. A .294 OBP in 68 plate appearances.

So in the 17 biggest games of his career he hit more then 100 points below his career average. However, this is the player you produce as evidence of 'clutch hitting'.

I'm not sure what your problem with Dmitri Young is. He pretty much beat the snot out of the ball in Cincinnati for 4 years. I'm not sure how many 'clutch situations' one would be in on a team that is in the neighborhood of 9-34.

Don't let something like statistics get in the way of your misconceptions and misinformation.

lynchjm24 · 05-23-2003, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Helli

Shea Hillenbrand is the perfect example of a guy that's not that great of a hitter, but seems to drive in runs by the bushel.

By the bushel eh? Shea had 83 RBI last year. He had a .293 average, 186 hits, 18 HR and 669 plate appearances.

I'd hardly say that 83 RBIs in 670 PAs with 186 hits is 'driving in runs by the bushel'. Especially in a good offensive park, with a good offensive team.

He was 8th in the league in ABs, 10th in hits, and 6th in doubles. Yet he was 25 RBI away from 10th in the American League. If a guy drove in runs in 'bushels', one would imagine that his RBI total would be proportional to his other totals.

Helli · 05-23-2003, 11:33 PM

btw... for those predicting doom, there's nothing wrong with a debate, hopefully this isn't taken as anything more.

Dwolf - OPS is On base percentage plus Slugging.

As I mentioned, On Base ONLY refers to how much a player got on base. You can only draw so many bases loaded walks in a season! You don't get RBI's for walking in any other situation.

Slugging percentage, which if I'm not mistaken denotes how many bases a player gets per hit, would seemingly be the BEST indicator of how likely any given hit would be to drive a run in.

Over the course of their careers, Buhner's teams managed an average of 782 runs per year, while Mondesi's teams scored about 724 runs per year. However, it should be noted that Buhner's teams averaged a whopping 911 runs per season after their breakthrough season of 1995, when Buhner began to miss a ton of games. He had like 3 full seasons after that (out of 6).

Meanwhile, during Mondesi's Dodger days, they were clearly superior to the horrible Mariners of the same period in scoring runs, if you look at the numbers. Plus, he had on base machine Brett Butler in front of him for much of that time, and later hit behind Mike Piazza.

In short, you can argue that the Kingdome was more conducive to scoring runs than Chavez Ravine, and I'd buy that. But the disparity between these two players and their ability to drive in runs is just too great a margin to ignore. You can only play half your games at home, and the Dodgers were scoring 700-800 runs per year when the Mariners were mangaging only 650 or so.

Lynch: I'll explain why Runs batted in per hit is relevant. There are situations where you can get an RBI without a hit, certainly. But most RBI's come on a hit, and in any given situation where you drive in a run without a hit, it's ONE run. But over the course of an entire career, it's as good as anything else is at pointing out why one player CONSISTENTLY drives in a ton of runs on a bad team and another guy (take Mondesi on this year's Yankee team for example) simply cannot do it. Yet again, Mondesi is on pace for less than 100 RBI, despite a very good start. He won't hit this well the rest of the year, and once again he won't drive in 100 runs despite being on a very good ballclub.

Let's put it this way, man. Do you think if I compiled RBI per game, that it would look much better for Mondesi? And by the way, I only mentioned batting average just to show that overall Mondesi had a better BA, not to factor it into my argument against him.

05-23-2003, 08:03 PM	#1
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	RBI rating I think there should be some sort of RBI rating of some sort. The ability to drive in runs, some players just have it, period. Guys like Giambi, AROD, Brett Boone just get the guy in somehow. Guys like Pena, Aaron Boone (well he sorta does), Ichiro, Jeter just done have that knack. It would make producing a lineup a real challenge, as a guy can hit .300 with 25 HR's but has a normal or Poor rating in "Producing Runs" category thus making him better suited for a 6 hitter. But a guy that hits .280, 20HR with a great rating can be in the 3 hole. just a thought. __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

05-23-2003, 09:52 PM	#5
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	how can u say no such thing exists? Again this is where stats vs watching baseball conflict. A player may not hit for a higher avg with guys on base, but with a guy on 3rd and 1 out, Guys like AROD and Bonds hit the ball on the right side of the infield, guys like Pena and Wiki Gonzalez hit the ball at the 3rd baseman. And dont pull that no clutch hitters exist, of course since you cant reflect it in a stat it doesn't exist right? There are guys that get the job done when it needs to be done (luis gonzalez, Ty Cobb, Micky Mantle, Kirk Gibson) and guys who dont (jose valentine, dmitri young). __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

05-23-2003, 10:12 PM	#8
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Oh god, here we go again... __________________ Last edited by Dwolfson20; 05-23-2003 at 10:24 PM.

05-23-2003, 10:23 PM	#10
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	No, it's obvious that players like Bonds and A-Rod are better than Wiki Gonzalez and Jose Valentin because they can hit in the clutch, not because of their superior ability. __________________

05-23-2003, 10:32 PM	#12
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Plutoro = Malleus? __________________

05-23-2003, 08:10 PM	#2
lynchjm24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hartford Posts: 978 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	To quote Apu, "I'm sorry, but such a thing does not exist". RBIs are a function of how well you hit, and how often there are players on base when you hit. There are no such things as 'clutch hitters' or players who can for whatever reason hit better when there are RISP.

05-23-2003, 08:10 PM	#3
Anonymous Ghost All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 751	There's a clutch hitting rating. I don't agree that anything beyond that is necessary. BTW, empirical evidence doesn't support the notion of a clutch hitter--but that's another issue.

05-23-2003, 09:30 PM	#4
Helli Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: ca Posts: 104	Shea Hillenbrand. that is all.

05-23-2003, 10:16 PM	#9
Anonymous Ghost All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 751	You have yet to address how this little brainchild of a stat would differ from the clutch hitter rating that already exists. In addition, if you honestly believe that there are intangibles beyond what can measured by statistical measures, how do propose to integrate them into a text-based game that's essentially just a representation of mathematical equations and probability functions?

05-23-2003, 10:25 PM	#11
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I give this thread a good rating for "Chance to get ugly."

05-23-2003, 10:33 PM	#13
Helli Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: ca Posts: 104	DD, I dont' think there should be an RBI rating, but I'm glad there's a clutch rating... (whatever that is - again I haven't played the game.) Shea Hillenbrand is the perfect example of a guy that's not that great of a hitter, but seems to drive in runs by the bushel. Jay Buhner was also like this, the guy once had almost as many RBI's as hits in a season.... (1995). Explain to me how players like Buhner can average an RBI per hit through an entire season (and portions of most others) while a guy like Raul Mondesi, despite playing in the middle of good lineups and posting good batting averages with plenty of the "other" stats like HR, runs, etc.... has failed to knock in 100 runs in any single season? edit: In fact, just for S&G, and for a giggle at some truly amateur math, here's Buhner's and Mondesi's hits/rbi for their entire careers. Buhner: 0.755 RBI per hit Mondesi: 0.557 RBI per hit Both were right fielders, batted in similar spots in the order throughout their careers... both were on mediocre to good teams, both had good power. Mondesi batted .276 on his career, while Buhner whiffed away to the tune of a .254 career average. Yet somehow, Buhner drove in 75 runs for every 100 hits, while Mondesi only drove in 55. Last edited by Helli; 05-23-2003 at 10:47 PM.

05-23-2003, 11:04 PM	#16
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	It's not a pointless comparison. OPS is a much better way of measuring hitting ability than any of the things you mentioned. Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that the higher RBI man, Buhner, also had a higher OPS. Also, OBP does have something to do with driving in runs. Getting on base moves runners along, correct? What if you get on to second base? If there's a runner on third when you do that, he's probably going to be driven in. Don't forget that batting average is quite a large component of OBP. __________________

05-23-2003, 11:33 PM	#20
Helli Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: ca Posts: 104	btw... for those predicting doom, there's nothing wrong with a debate, hopefully this isn't taken as anything more. Dwolf - OPS is On base percentage plus Slugging. As I mentioned, On Base ONLY refers to how much a player got on base. You can only draw so many bases loaded walks in a season! You don't get RBI's for walking in any other situation. Slugging percentage, which if I'm not mistaken denotes how many bases a player gets per hit, would seemingly be the BEST indicator of how likely any given hit would be to drive a run in. Over the course of their careers, Buhner's teams managed an average of 782 runs per year, while Mondesi's teams scored about 724 runs per year. However, it should be noted that Buhner's teams averaged a whopping 911 runs per season after their breakthrough season of 1995, when Buhner began to miss a ton of games. He had like 3 full seasons after that (out of 6). Meanwhile, during Mondesi's Dodger days, they were clearly superior to the horrible Mariners of the same period in scoring runs, if you look at the numbers. Plus, he had on base machine Brett Butler in front of him for much of that time, and later hit behind Mike Piazza. In short, you can argue that the Kingdome was more conducive to scoring runs than Chavez Ravine, and I'd buy that. But the disparity between these two players and their ability to drive in runs is just too great a margin to ignore. You can only play half your games at home, and the Dodgers were scoring 700-800 runs per year when the Mariners were mangaging only 650 or so. Lynch: I'll explain why Runs batted in per hit is relevant. There are situations where you can get an RBI without a hit, certainly. But most RBI's come on a hit, and in any given situation where you drive in a run without a hit, it's ONE run. But over the course of an entire career, it's as good as anything else is at pointing out why one player CONSISTENTLY drives in a ton of runs on a bad team and another guy (take Mondesi on this year's Yankee team for example) simply cannot do it. Yet again, Mondesi is on pace for less than 100 RBI, despite a very good start. He won't hit this well the rest of the year, and once again he won't drive in 100 runs despite being on a very good ballclub. Let's put it this way, man. Do you think if I compiled RBI per game, that it would look much better for Mondesi? And by the way, I only mentioned batting average just to show that overall Mondesi had a better BA, not to factor it into my argument against him.