A difficult question to answer...

thebadguy · 10-19-2004, 05:33 PM

As many of you have probably already heard, I put an "advertisement" for TBCB on the Boxing Torrents website. The response has been very good and I am sure more than a few sales will happen as a result. So yesterday I went onto the boxing torrent forums and asked "Has anyone bought the game yet?". I got one response in particular that I could not think of a way to answer him. He said, "I cant see myself buying a program that has Oscar De La Hoya rated higher than Felix Trinidad at Middleweight."

Apparently this guy must think that there are many inaccuracies in the ratings due to this one example. So I have to ask the group here at the TBCB forums... How do I respond to this fellow?

Has the "Golden Boy's" image and persona made him one of the most overrated fighters in history? Is Oscar really that good? I wonder....

hamed · 10-19-2004, 06:00 PM

Isn't Oscar a 10 @ MW? I have a 10 rated Tito but also have the 12 rated Tito & that's the one I'm using now. He took the WBA MW title from an 11 rated Toney.

mh2365 · 10-19-2004, 06:03 PM

You respond by saying when Oscar fought Hopkins he won a few rounds and was in the fight until he get dropped by what may have been the most perfect punch thrown in boxing history while Tito on the other hand got his ass kicked from one corner of the ring to the other by Hopkins.

sabotai · 10-19-2004, 06:04 PM

Well, for one, you could say that although Trinidad lasted 3 rounds more than Oscar, De La Hoya, until getting hit with the shot to the liver, was having a better performance against Hopkins than Trinidad did.

You could also mention that the sample size of Trinidad's and De La Hoya's middleweight fights are too small to really get a perfect image of how the two fighters perform at middleweight (also note that since the rated Trinidad is set to Retired, it does not seem to take into account his recent performance against Mayorga).

You could say that although the 2 guys who rate the fighters have been around boxing for many years, it still comes down to their opinions and that all ratings are editable. And say that the game has been around for a long time in various forms and that it has produced highly realistic results. That it's not really the Overall Rating that matters, but that the game produces realistic results.

Also, the Overall Rating is deceiving. While Trinidad might be rated a 10 and Oscar an 11, that doesn't mean that Oscar is rated "better". There's far more than meets the eye in the ratings.

To prove that last point, I ran a test. 1000 fights between the 10 rated (Retired) Felix Trinidad and the 11 rated (Active - PostPrime) Oscar De La Hoya. I used the Unified rules system with 12 rounds. All random options choosen. Here are the results.

Oscar De La Hoya won 382 fights, Trinidad won 579 times and it was a draw 39 times. They were close in how many decisions were won (191 for Oscar and 201 for Trinidad), but Trinidad stopped De La Hoya 378 times to De La Hoya stopping Trinidad 191 times.

thebadguy · 10-19-2004, 06:29 PM

Do I have permission from you guys to cut and paste, then combine both of your answers somehow and post it in the other forum? Those are two really good answers... I wouldn't have anything else to add anyway.

sabotai · 10-19-2004, 07:53 PM

Go right ahead.

mh2365 · 10-20-2004, 12:54 AM

Post mine if you want, but sabs was far more intelligent of an answer =)

hamed · 10-20-2004, 09:18 AM

mh & sabotai: great points!

While Tito did look impressive, Mayorga is a blown up welterweight with a straight on style - made for Tito! Let's see if he looks as impressive against a guy who can box. A guy like Jermain Taylor (while still young) would be a big, young, strong fighter with a jab who would provide any fighter a stern test.

crusadecat · 10-20-2004, 05:33 PM

I think those are great responses. Especially the one regarding ratings. It is overly simplistic to look at the overall rating and say that one fighter is rated better than the other. Alot, like real boxing depends on the strategies employed , the flow of the fight. The great thing about the game, as well is that ratings can and will be changed along the way. I prefer to only use retired boxers in my universe to avoid fight to fight anomolies and would rather wait to look at the entire career to judge the fighter fairly.

erickdamac · 10-20-2004, 11:12 PM

Again People we most not forget oscar is 0-3 in his last three fights (lets be real guys) And The only round i had oscar winning is the 2nd, And maxboxing, dan rafael and fightnews all agree with me, The fact is at MM oscar is not better than Tito, now a WW OScar might have the edge, Buttom line is OScar got knocked out with a body punch, which means he is soft to the body I knew he was soft to the body when in the 9th round shane mosley almost knocked him out in there 2nd fight with a body punch, Oscar has bad stamina, OScar do not listen to his corner oscar do not have confidence, When you take all these in account he is not better than tito no matter how you cut it, And yeah you can tell the guy, You can change it or its just There rating, He might think to himself, If this guy rating is wrong maybe the fighters I dont know about ratings are alittle messed up.

10-19-2004, 05:33 PM	#1
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	A difficult question to answer... As many of you have probably already heard, I put an "advertisement" for TBCB on the Boxing Torrents website. The response has been very good and I am sure more than a few sales will happen as a result. So yesterday I went onto the boxing torrent forums and asked "Has anyone bought the game yet?". I got one response in particular that I could not think of a way to answer him. He said, "I cant see myself buying a program that has Oscar De La Hoya rated higher than Felix Trinidad at Middleweight." Apparently this guy must think that there are many inaccuracies in the ratings due to this one example. So I have to ask the group here at the TBCB forums... How do I respond to this fellow? Has the "Golden Boy's" image and persona made him one of the most overrated fighters in history? Is Oscar really that good? I wonder.... __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ***ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface) Last edited by thebadguy; 10-19-2004 at 05:36 PM.*

10-19-2004, 06:29 PM	#5
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	Do I have permission from you guys to cut and paste, then combine both of your answers somehow and post it in the other forum? Those are two really good answers... I wouldn't have anything else to add anyway. __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ****ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface)

10-19-2004, 06:00 PM	#2
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	Isn't Oscar a 10 @ MW? I have a 10 rated Tito but also have the 12 rated Tito & that's the one I'm using now. He took the WBA MW title from an 11 rated Toney.

10-19-2004, 06:03 PM	#3
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	You respond by saying when Oscar fought Hopkins he won a few rounds and was in the fight until he get dropped by what may have been the most perfect punch thrown in boxing history while Tito on the other hand got his ass kicked from one corner of the ring to the other by Hopkins.

10-19-2004, 06:04 PM	#4
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 841	Well, for one, you could say that although Trinidad lasted 3 rounds more than Oscar, De La Hoya, until getting hit with the shot to the liver, was having a better performance against Hopkins than Trinidad did. You could also mention that the sample size of Trinidad's and De La Hoya's middleweight fights are too small to really get a perfect image of how the two fighters perform at middleweight (also note that since the rated Trinidad is set to Retired, it does not seem to take into account his recent performance against Mayorga). You could say that although the 2 guys who rate the fighters have been around boxing for many years, it still comes down to their opinions and that all ratings are editable. And say that the game has been around for a long time in various forms and that it has produced highly realistic results. That it's not really the Overall Rating that matters, but that the game produces realistic results. Also, the Overall Rating is deceiving. While Trinidad might be rated a 10 and Oscar an 11, that doesn't mean that Oscar is rated "better". There's far more than meets the eye in the ratings. To prove that last point, I ran a test. 1000 fights between the 10 rated (Retired) Felix Trinidad and the 11 rated (Active - PostPrime) Oscar De La Hoya. I used the Unified rules system with 12 rounds. All random options choosen. Here are the results. Oscar De La Hoya won 382 fights, Trinidad won 579 times and it was a draw 39 times. They were close in how many decisions were won (191 for Oscar and 201 for Trinidad), but Trinidad stopped De La Hoya 378 times to De La Hoya stopping Trinidad 191 times.

10-19-2004, 07:53 PM	#6
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 841	Go right ahead.

10-20-2004, 12:54 AM	#7
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Post mine if you want, but sabs was far more intelligent of an answer =)

10-20-2004, 09:18 AM	#8
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	mh & sabotai: great points! While Tito did look impressive, Mayorga is a blown up welterweight with a straight on style - made for Tito! Let's see if he looks as impressive against a guy who can box. A guy like Jermain Taylor (while still young) would be a big, young, strong fighter with a jab who would provide any fighter a stern test.

10-20-2004, 05:33 PM	#9
crusadecat All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 827	I think those are great responses. Especially the one regarding ratings. It is overly simplistic to look at the overall rating and say that one fighter is rated better than the other. Alot, like real boxing depends on the strategies employed , the flow of the fight. The great thing about the game, as well is that ratings can and will be changed along the way. I prefer to only use retired boxers in my universe to avoid fight to fight anomolies and would rather wait to look at the entire career to judge the fighter fairly.

10-20-2004, 11:12 PM	#10
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Again People we most not forget oscar is 0-3 in his last three fights (lets be real guys) And The only round i had oscar winning is the 2nd, And maxboxing, dan rafael and fightnews all agree with me, The fact is at MM oscar is not better than Tito, now a WW OScar might have the edge, Buttom line is OScar got knocked out with a body punch, which means he is soft to the body I knew he was soft to the body when in the 9th round shane mosley almost knocked him out in there 2nd fight with a body punch, Oscar has bad stamina, OScar do not listen to his corner oscar do not have confidence, When you take all these in account he is not better than tito no matter how you cut it, And yeah you can tell the guy, You can change it or its just There rating, He might think to himself, If this guy rating is wrong maybe the fighters I dont know about ratings are alittle messed up.