A Hall of Fame Question? Opinions Desired

Kett · 07-09-2004, 06:41 PM

I have a pitcher, who just retired in my solo league, who is a marginal hall of famer. He is a two time pitcher of the year, 4 time all star and has pitched a no hitter. The thing is, he was the 2 or 3 starter for the the best team in the leagues history, winning 5 world series in a 6 year span. Now in your opinion, does this make him a better or worse candidate for the hall of fame.

On one hand, he was a relatively important part of the best team ever. But, on the other, being on the best team boosts win totals of which he had 260 in his career.

Any thoughts?

Falcon52 · 07-09-2004, 07:01 PM

I'd need A LOT more information than what you're supplying to give you an accurate opinion.

ERA? Number of wins? IP? Strikeouts? any gold gloves?

Also, depending on the above, I don't think it should be held against him that he played for a good team. Will Derek Jeter's numbers be overlooked when HoF voting comes around just because he happened to play for a dominant team? I doubt it.

Kett · 07-09-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon52

I'd need A LOT more information than what you're supplying to give you an accurate opinion.

ERA? Number of wins? IP? Strikeouts? any gold gloves?

Also, depending on the above, I don't think it should be held against him that he played for a good team. Will Derek Jeter's numbers be overlooked when HoF voting comes around just because he happened to play for a dominant team? I doubt it.

I'm not asking necessarily about the specific player, but more in general, because a player played for a great team, should he be held to a higher standard for the help that he got from playing from the team, or a lower one, because he did win 5 championships?

Falcon52 · 07-09-2004, 07:18 PM

I don't think he should be held to higher standards.

As long as he played to his capabilities, and didn't just get wins or whatever due to massive run support, then he deserves to be there.

IMO, the only time the success of his club should be taken in to account is if it's a mediocre player who just happens to have a huge boost in numbers (for hitters, he scores more runs or something because everyone drives him home, or for pitchers, lousy ERA but huge win totals because of run support).

Dan Theman · 07-09-2004, 07:59 PM

I also tend to think he deserves a shot. To me the reason is a bit different - it's based on the reason that I feel people go into the HOF. It's not just for spectacular performance, but also for their impact on the sport. Being the #2 starter on one of the best teams in league history puts the spotlight on someone and it seems that because of this he may have had more impact on the game than a fairly equal starter for another team that didn't fare that well.

This isn't to say that the other starter SHOULDN'T go in, but it's my reasoning to not discount someone's acheivements when considering their induction into the hall.

jmm8356 · 07-09-2004, 08:06 PM

Well, in RL, two-time Cy Young winners are also marginal HoF candidates:

Denny McLain
Bret Saberhagen
Bob Gibson
Gaylord Perry
Tom Glavine

If you're not sure he deserves it, I'd err on the side of leaving him out. After all, HoF is Forever.

That being said, I don't think he should be penalized too greatly for playing for great teams, other than perhaps giving less weight to a good W-L record.

Cowboys3356 · 07-09-2004, 10:28 PM

I don't think you can hold it against a player for being on a good team. Perhaps one of the reasons the team was so good was because of this player. I tend to think more of a guy who was a winner than a guy who played for a bad team but put up good numbers.

Big Train · 07-11-2004, 03:12 PM

Denny McLain and Bret Saberhagen marginal Hall of Famers? According to who?

In real life many pitchers are in the hall of fame largely because they pitched for great teams and got good run support so racked up their win totals and the writers seem to think that number of wins is by far the most important factor in determining whether a player gets in to the Hall of Fame.

Personally, I would not hold it against him that he played on a great team but I would give a lot of weight to his ERA compared to the league ERA. if he has tons of wins but if his ERA is not significantly below the league ERA over his career he's not a Hall of Famer in my opinion.

JDOldSchool · 07-11-2004, 05:14 PM

How do some of his other numbers rank? Strike outs? Homers allowed? 260 wins is very good, but if his ERA was 4.25 then he's probably not a hall of famer. What are some of his other numbers?

Kett · 07-11-2004, 07:40 PM

Yea, I don't have them with me, but off the top of my head, I think his era was 4 something. I don't remeber his other numbers. I went ahead and took him out of the hall of fame as his numbers beyond his wins were not very impressive.

07-09-2004, 06:41 PM	#1
Kett Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 77	A Hall of Fame Question? Opinions Desired I have a pitcher, who just retired in my solo league, who is a marginal hall of famer. He is a two time pitcher of the year, 4 time all star and has pitched a no hitter. The thing is, he was the 2 or 3 starter for the the best team in the leagues history, winning 5 world series in a 6 year span. Now in your opinion, does this make him a better or worse candidate for the hall of fame. On one hand, he was a relatively important part of the best team ever. But, on the other, being on the best team boosts win totals of which he had 260 in his career. Any thoughts?

07-09-2004, 07:18 PM	#4
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	I don't think he should be held to higher standards. As long as he played to his capabilities, and didn't just get wins or whatever due to massive run support, then he deserves to be there. IMO, the only time the success of his club should be taken in to account is if it's a mediocre player who just happens to have a huge boost in numbers (for hitters, he scores more runs or something because everyone drives him home, or for pitchers, lousy ERA but huge win totals because of run support). __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"

07-09-2004, 07:01 PM	#2
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	I'd need A LOT more information than what you're supplying to give you an accurate opinion. ERA? Number of wins? IP? Strikeouts? any gold gloves? Also, depending on the above, I don't think it should be held against him that he played for a good team. Will Derek Jeter's numbers be overlooked when HoF voting comes around just because he happened to play for a dominant team? I doubt it. __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"

07-09-2004, 08:06 PM	#6
jmm8356 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Lafayette IN (by way of Tonawanda NY) Posts: 1,673	Well, in RL, two-time Cy Young winners are also marginal HoF candidates: Denny McLain Bret Saberhagen Bob Gibson Gaylord Perry Tom Glavine If you're not sure he deserves it, I'd err on the side of leaving him out. After all, HoF is Forever. That being said, I don't think he should be penalized too greatly for playing for great teams, other than perhaps giving less weight to a good W-L record.

07-09-2004, 10:28 PM	#7
Cowboys3356 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,571	I don't think you can hold it against a player for being on a good team. Perhaps one of the reasons the team was so good was because of this player. I tend to think more of a guy who was a winner than a guy who played for a bad team but put up good numbers.

07-11-2004, 03:12 PM	#8
Big Train Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 402	Denny McLain and Bret Saberhagen marginal Hall of Famers? According to who? In real life many pitchers are in the hall of fame largely because they pitched for great teams and got good run support so racked up their win totals and the writers seem to think that number of wins is by far the most important factor in determining whether a player gets in to the Hall of Fame. Personally, I would not hold it against him that he played on a great team but I would give a lot of weight to his ERA compared to the league ERA. if he has tons of wins but if his ERA is not significantly below the league ERA over his career he's not a Hall of Famer in my opinion.

07-11-2004, 05:14 PM	#9
JDOldSchool Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 4,023	How do some of his other numbers rank? Strike outs? Homers allowed? 260 wins is very good, but if his ERA was 4.25 then he's probably not a hall of famer. What are some of his other numbers?

07-11-2004, 07:40 PM	#10
Kett Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 77	Yea, I don't have them with me, but off the top of my head, I think his era was 4 something. I don't remeber his other numbers. I went ahead and took him out of the hall of fame as his numbers beyond his wins were not very impressive.