Talent Rating

JerseyPride · 05-14-2004, 09:35 AM

Exactly what is the talent rating?

Henry · 05-14-2004, 09:53 AM

Talent = "Current Maximum Ability"
Rating = "Current Performance"

Both are dynamic, the Rating "chases" the Talent.

Cooker · 05-14-2004, 12:02 PM

Recently I was evaluating a possible trade with a CPU controlled team. I have scouts and coaches on, using 1-100 scale.

The player I like has one of his "rating" numbers that is higher than his "talent" number (e.g., his contact rating is 65 but contract talent is only 55).

I assume this means that the player in question must've suffered a talent decrease relatively recently (which is the only reason I can think of for why his "rating" exceeds his "talent"). Is that right? Or is there some other explanation for the "rating" number exceeding the "talent" number?

Henry · 05-14-2004, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooker
Recently I was evaluating a possible trade with a CPU controlled team. I have scouts and coaches on, using 1-100 scale.

The player I like has one of his "rating" numbers that is higher than his "talent" number (e.g., his contact rating is 65 but contract talent is only 55).

I assume this means that the player in question must've suffered a talent decrease relatively recently (which is the only reason I can think of for why his "rating" exceeds his "talent"). Is that right? Or is there some other explanation for the "rating" number exceeding the "talent" number?

Unless there is an undocumented bug

that would be correct. I would expect his rating to fall over time.

jnshmoo · 05-14-2004, 12:49 PM

How often do you see players get off to a particularly hot start only to peter off and average out? That would be a good example of someone's ratings being above their talent. I'd expect to see a player that is having a career year have higher ratings than talent as well.

Joe

fat dude · 05-14-2004, 02:17 PM

I see guys with ratings above talent way way too often. It's quite common in my solo game actually. It really doesn't make sense. If you've only got the talent to hit .270, how can you be rated a .300 hitter? I figured this would get fixed up in a patch, or am I missing something? Maybe the new engine is supposed to work like this. It's a very minor squable in the grand scheme of things, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it.

Henry · 05-14-2004, 02:39 PM

FD,

"your missing something"

As Imentioned, the rating "chases" the talent... thus if a player has a 70 talent rating, and a 70 rating (playing full potential) and his talent takes a hit to 60 - it now will take some time for the game to reduce his rating down to 60 (or less).

Maybe instead of calling Talent "current maximum ability" we should call it "current percieved ability".

Jayzone · 05-14-2004, 03:31 PM

There are actually two causes for ability score to appear higher than talent rating. The first one, as mentioned by Henry, is the sudden drop in talent at the time when player is playing upto the his potential/talent. The second one is the natural L/R split. So, a player can have one ability split rated as higher than talent. (eg. 70 in talent, 80 in vsR). This will also result in possible situation where the overall ability of a player is rated higher than talent. Why is this? The formula to calculate overall ability is the following: (NOt official info, I figured this out myself)

Code:

overall ability = 0.7 * ability vs R + 0.3 * ability vs L

So, you can see that ability vs R is weighted more heavily. So, if player has a strong split (eg. 70 talent, 80 vs R, 60 vs L), then the overall ability will be higher than talent (overall = 0.7 * 80 + 0.3 * 60 = 74). So, this can possibly create an illusion of ability higher than talent.

side note (shameless *ad*): I am doing a little study (still ongoing) on player development which also disscuss (a little bit) the relation between ability and talent. For those who are interested, it's the following link. Comments are welcome.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=62116

p.s. I think of talent pretty much as current potential/growth room, just like the "current percieved ability" Henry mentioned.

Ragin Cajun · 05-14-2004, 04:09 PM

Henry, you seem to be on top of this so here's one for you. When drafting, is there no longer a tool to see their max potential (or perceived max potential) in drafting a player? Or is that the Talent (current max ability). Also, does that have the ability to go up (or down). IE: if you draft a player with a 50 talent (1-100 scale for example) can he increase to a 60+ as he progresses through the minors?

Henry · 05-14-2004, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragin Cajun
Henry, you seem to be on top of this so here's one for you. When drafting, is there no longer a tool to see their max potential (or perceived max potential) in drafting a player? Or is that the Talent (current max ability). Also, does that have the ability to go up (or down). IE: if you draft a player with a 50 talent (1-100 scale for example) can he increase to a 60+ as he progresses through the minors?

Yes, Talent is the "max" abiltiy - and YES it can go up and down. In effect, there is no "permanent" rating a player gets when he's created and never changes. Players are given "starting values for both talent and ratings, and then a "career curve" adjusts those numbers as time goes on.

Now, I don't know the details of how a "career curve" is applied (whether specific to a player or general for the league totals) but the net result is VERY impressive in V6 - much moreso than previous versions (and I thought V5 was pretty good).

jbmagic · 05-14-2004, 05:04 PM

for player development report when it shows a player increase his movement, stuff, etc......what gets improvement the talent rating or the regular rating?

thanks

Jayzone · 05-14-2004, 05:15 PM

When player receive a drop in the player development report, both ability and talent drops. The magnitude of the drop is around 10 or so (out of 100 scale). Now, as for increase in player development report, I know that talent increases for sure, but I didn't pay attention to ability, so I am not sure if the ability increases or not. However, I *think* ability does increases, as I just on one of my league and there is a difference for the 'before and after', though this is like start of the year and persent time (end of July). So, it may be just the normal player development. (growth of ability)

Jayzone · 05-14-2004, 05:30 PM

Henry,

I doubt that the career curve is specific to a player in the sense that each player is desined to a career mode. (eg. player A has a career mode of "peak-early") If you backup the league at the time point and repeatively run the league for a specific time frame, then you can see all sort of player development. Player A who received a talent drop in run no.1 can possibly receive a a talent increase in run no.2. However, the thing is that player A could perform bad in run no.1 so that he *deserved* a drop and vice versa in run no.2. So, that way, player development is influenced by performance (which is actually mentioned in OOTP6 feature list).

Or, the development is just a random chaos that you will never know how the player turns out even with good/bad performance. However, I do think the first case is more logical. Though if the first model is true then maybe we need to worry about the result long-term slump due to player being *unlucky* in a long period of time. So, this way, the player's development won't be *punished* by luck.

Either way, as long as the career curves of all players prove to be realistic then it doesn't really matter on how development is actually implemented.

jbmagic · 05-14-2004, 05:56 PM

for player development report....that increase/decrease ratings for talent and regular ratings..

can you get an increase or decrease for talent and regular rating from player experience and age too without from player development report?

is there a way to know when u get that increase/decrease from this way?

Jayzone · 05-14-2004, 06:08 PM

If there is a change in talent, it will be reported in player development report. The change in ability rating wont' show up in player development report with the possible exception of spring training reult. (By the way, I am still not sure what exact/actual effect does the spring training have.) So, you will have to monitor the player closerly. Well, if you have ratings turned OFF, then you will have to solely rely on stats. So, when you see a player performs better for a long stretch of time, then you know it's possible there is a increase in player's ability. The player development is influenced by so many factors that nobody seems to have a idea how they *work*. So, age, experience, or planetary alignment

(just kidding) can *possibly* be a factor. Well, perhaps somebody knows better than me.

jbmagic · 05-14-2004, 07:21 PM

thanks

it sure will be nice on the player card...if it shows the original ability rating and in parenthesis the new current rating he is getting...this way you can see on a certain player if he had an increase or decrease and u can compare to see how he doing...

05-14-2004, 09:35 AM	#1
JerseyPride All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dirtay Jerzey Posts: 951	Talent Rating Exactly what is the talent rating? __________________ "I guess you could call the Yanks my daddys." -Pedro Martinez

05-14-2004, 09:53 AM	#2
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Talent = "Current Maximum Ability" Rating = "Current Performance" Both are dynamic, the Rating "chases" the Talent. Last edited by Henry; 05-14-2004 at 10:16 AM.

05-14-2004, 03:31 PM	#8
Jayzone All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 706	There are actually two causes for ability score to appear higher than talent rating. The first one, as mentioned by Henry, is the sudden drop in talent at the time when player is playing upto the his potential/talent. The second one is the natural L/R split. So, a player can have one ability split rated as higher than talent. (eg. 70 in talent, 80 in vsR). This will also result in possible situation where the overall ability of a player is rated higher than talent. Why is this? The formula to calculate overall ability is the following: (NOt official info, I figured this out myself) Code: overall ability = 0.7 * ability vs R + 0.3 * ability vs L So, you can see that ability vs R is weighted more heavily. So, if player has a strong split (eg. 70 talent, 80 vs R, 60 vs L), then the overall ability will be higher than talent (overall = 0.7 * 80 + 0.3 * 60 = 74). So, this can possibly create an illusion of ability higher than talent. side note (shameless ad): I am doing a little study (still ongoing) on player development which also disscuss (a little bit) the relation between ability and talent. For those who are interested, it's the following link. Comments are welcome. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=62116 p.s. I think of talent pretty much as current potential/growth room, just like the "current percieved ability" Henry mentioned.

05-14-2004, 04:09 PM	#9
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	Henry, you seem to be on top of this so here's one for you. When drafting, is there no longer a tool to see their max potential (or perceived max potential) in drafting a player? Or is that the Talent (current max ability). Also, does that have the ability to go up (or down). IE: if you draft a player with a 50 talent (1-100 scale for example) can he increase to a 60+ as he progresses through the minors? __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion

05-14-2004, 12:02 PM	#3
Cooker All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 592	Recently I was evaluating a possible trade with a CPU controlled team. I have scouts and coaches on, using 1-100 scale. The player I like has one of his "rating" numbers that is higher than his "talent" number (e.g., his contact rating is 65 but contract talent is only 55). I assume this means that the player in question must've suffered a talent decrease relatively recently (which is the only reason I can think of for why his "rating" exceeds his "talent"). Is that right? Or is there some other explanation for the "rating" number exceeding the "talent" number?

05-14-2004, 12:49 PM	#5
jnshmoo All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Not Here Posts: 1,226	How often do you see players get off to a particularly hot start only to peter off and average out? That would be a good example of someone's ratings being above their talent. I'd expect to see a player that is having a career year have higher ratings than talent as well. Joe

05-14-2004, 02:17 PM	#6
fat dude Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 392	I see guys with ratings above talent way way too often. It's quite common in my solo game actually. It really doesn't make sense. If you've only got the talent to hit .270, how can you be rated a .300 hitter? I figured this would get fixed up in a patch, or am I missing something? Maybe the new engine is supposed to work like this. It's a very minor squable in the grand scheme of things, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it.

05-14-2004, 02:39 PM	#7
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	FD, "your missing something" As Imentioned, the rating "chases" the talent... thus if a player has a 70 talent rating, and a 70 rating (playing full potential) and his talent takes a hit to 60 - it now will take some time for the game to reduce his rating down to 60 (or less). Maybe instead of calling Talent "current maximum ability" we should call it "current percieved ability".

05-14-2004, 05:04 PM	#11
jbmagic Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,417	for player development report when it shows a player increase his movement, stuff, etc......what gets improvement the talent rating or the regular rating? thanks

05-14-2004, 05:15 PM	#12
Jayzone All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 706	When player receive a drop in the player development report, both ability and talent drops. The magnitude of the drop is around 10 or so (out of 100 scale). Now, as for increase in player development report, I know that talent increases for sure, but I didn't pay attention to ability, so I am not sure if the ability increases or not. However, I think ability does increases, as I just on one of my league and there is a difference for the 'before and after', though this is like start of the year and persent time (end of July). So, it may be just the normal player development. (growth of ability)

05-14-2004, 05:30 PM	#13
Jayzone All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 706	Henry, I doubt that the career curve is specific to a player in the sense that each player is desined to a career mode. (eg. player A has a career mode of "peak-early") If you backup the league at the time point and repeatively run the league for a specific time frame, then you can see all sort of player development. Player A who received a talent drop in run no.1 can possibly receive a a talent increase in run no.2. However, the thing is that player A could perform bad in run no.1 so that he deserved a drop and vice versa in run no.2. So, that way, player development is influenced by performance (which is actually mentioned in OOTP6 feature list). Or, the development is just a random chaos that you will never know how the player turns out even with good/bad performance. However, I do think the first case is more logical. Though if the first model is true then maybe we need to worry about the result long-term slump due to player being unlucky in a long period of time. So, this way, the player's development won't be punished by luck. Either way, as long as the career curves of all players prove to be realistic then it doesn't really matter on how development is actually implemented.

05-14-2004, 05:56 PM	#14
jbmagic Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,417	for player development report....that increase/decrease ratings for talent and regular ratings.. can you get an increase or decrease for talent and regular rating from player experience and age too without from player development report? is there a way to know when u get that increase/decrease from this way?

05-14-2004, 06:08 PM	#15
Jayzone All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 706	If there is a change in talent, it will be reported in player development report. The change in ability rating wont' show up in player development report with the possible exception of spring training reult. (By the way, I am still not sure what exact/actual effect does the spring training have.) So, you will have to monitor the player closerly. Well, if you have ratings turned OFF, then you will have to solely rely on stats. So, when you see a player performs better for a long stretch of time, then you know it's possible there is a increase in player's ability. The player development is influenced by so many factors that nobody seems to have a idea how they work. So, age, experience, or planetary alignment (just kidding) can possibly be a factor. Well, perhaps somebody knows better than me.

05-14-2004, 07:21 PM	#16
jbmagic Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,417	thanks it sure will be nice on the player card...if it shows the original ability rating and in parenthesis the new current rating he is getting...this way you can see on a certain player if he had an increase or decrease and u can compare to see how he doing...